My guest is Csaba Borzasi. He's an online marketer (sells people stuff with the written word) and a former conspiracy theorist.

Episode Summary

In this episode, my guest and I talk about psychological tactics used by right-wing influencers to create conspiracy theories that spread like wildfire online.

Quotes We Loved

Conspiracy Theories and Feeling Alone: "I think this is one of the catalysts that brings people into the world of conspiracy theories because I felt like, yes. The world doesn't understand me, and I wanna understand the world better."
— Csaba Borzási [00:04:03 → 00:04:13]

Conspiracy Theories: "I always knew there was something fishy about this. Yep. I always knew there was something fishy, and now this is the real truth that somebody has been keeping from me."
— Csaba Borzási [00:05:44 → 00:05:54]

The Importance of Mental Health Awareness: "I realized that lots of people around me are alcoholics or depressed, but it's just considered normal because it's like, hey. This is what people do. Right?"
— Csaba Borzási [00:08:36 → 00:08:44]

Conspiracy theories and rebellion: "But in terms of emotions, of course, just like you said, I felt felt like an outsider. I felt like a black sheep. I felt I was very anxious when I was a teen. I had long hair as well. I got sucked into the rocker culture as well, which, again, correlates very closely with lots of right wingers and conspiracy theories."
— Csaba Borzási [00:10:39 → 00:11:26]

The Power of Populism: "The reason why he's doing it, the reason why Joe Rogan has turned super right wing, the reason why even, like, Jordan Peterson who used to look up to really, like, a lot...The reason why they're doing that is because this type of messaging converts way better than reason-based change."
— Csaba Borzási [00:26:27 → 00:26:37]

Awakening to the Deception: "Dude, what if these con people like Alex Jones and David Icke, they are the ones who are lying to me because they wanna exploit my attention."
— Csaba Borzási [00:29:17 → 00:29:22]

Reptilian People and Hungarian Lineage: "And there was Atlantis and the Hungarians are actually the descendants of the atlanteans.  Like, of course, I have this knowledge because I'm part I'm part of this lineage."
— Csaba Borzási [00:33:22 → 00:33:30]

Right wing russian propaganda: "The methodology behind certain manipulation techniques...right wingers use it much more consistently...there was this thing called operation infection...precisely to destabilize the west...Russian propaganda and the right wing groups...realized that, hey, this gets more attention. It gets us more power, money and most importantly, rabid followers...Look at Trumpers. I mean, it's just matter what he does, they would still forgive him. It's like, oh, but that child was like a QAnon demon or something."
— Csaba Borzási [00:39:13 → 00:39:17]

Neuroplastic Belief Shifting Method: "But, I think it's a great prototype to basically sell any idea to anyone and shift their beliefs In fact, get them to convince themselves, to establish a new
— Csaba Borzási [00:40:48 → 00:41:02]

Conspiracy Theories and the pursuit of truth: "So for me, it's to get the clutter out and to find the source of the truth if that's possible."
— Csaba Borzási [00:42:23 → 00:42:30]

Guest Bio & Links

If you're interested in learning how to sell things online via the written word, check out Csaba's website:

Here's the video playlist we mentioned on the podcast. This is a video of Csaba breaking down the best selling products sold via direct mail and direct response copywriting:

Read podcast transcript

Antonio [00:00:01]:

In this episode, my guest and I cover powerful psychological tricks used to create conspiracy theories that spread like wildfire online and suck millions of people in. Can you guess what some of these tricks are? Keep listening to find out.

voice over [00:00:15]:

Welcome to escaping the rabbit hole. hosted by former conspiracy theorist, Antonio Perez, author of Converting Conspiracy Theris. Antonio looks at conspiracy theories from multiple angles. such as how do conspiracy theorists impact their family and friends? How can they escape the grip of conspiracy theories? And why do they fall down the rabbit hole in the first place? you'll discover strategies to set clear boundaries with people stuck in dangerous conspiracy theories and improve your mental well-being. Here's your host, Antonio Perez.

Antonio [00:00:48]:

Aloha. It's Antonio with escaping the rabbit hole dot com. Today, I have a special guest. He is not a typical guest of what I have. He is a guest that is in the kind of online marketing space teaches people how to sell the products online. We had talked a few months ago about how he had fallen down the rabbit hole a while ago. So we're gonna kinda get his perspective on it and maybe even get his perspective how some online marketing, some elements of sales play into, sucking people into conspiracy rabbit holes. My guess is Shee. Is that it? Yep. You nailed it. Thank you for coming on.

Csaba Borzási [00:01:31]:

Thank you for inviting me, Antonio. It's great to be here. It's a really unique podcast and, definitely looking forward to exploring and going deeper down the rabbit hole with you. That's very easy to do. And anytime when people ask me to look at a conspiracy,

Antonio [00:01:45]:

I I want to avoid it because I know I've already done gone down that rabbit hole before, but I do know it's almost like, you know, people talk about, like, the the like, encompasses in the the north star or whatever. Mhmm. Sometimes I feel those feelings in my body. My okay. Yep. It's a bad place for me to be. Let me not go down that rabbit because I could've if I had not de radicalized myself in, like, 2007 ish, I could've easily been at the capital, and I don't I don't wanna end up in prison. I mean, that's a good bar. If if your if your main if your main goal is to keep you out of prison, maybe you should have some more goals.

Csaba Borzási [00:02:20]:


Antonio [00:02:21]:

So let me ask you, how, how did you get pulled into the rabbit hole kind of a 2 parter. How did you get pulled in the rabbit hole in the first place? And what kind of rabbit hole did you find yourself in?

Csaba Borzási [00:02:34]:

Sure. So as a as a brief context for people, I was born in Transylvania, Romania. Yep. Yes. That's Transylvania with the vampires and stuff. Funny enough, there's no conspiracy theories around that in Romania. but, I am ethnically Hungarian. So now I live in Budapest, Hungary, which has all it's all own types of, like, conspiracy theories because of the right wing hard line government here headed by a Victor Orban. but how I was pulled into the into it is I think it's it's something that resonates with a lot of people. I I only always felt like a black sheep in my family because, most of most of my piece were basically either like laborators or, you know, people who were I mean, most of my extended family were peasants in a sense, because this is Eastern Europe we're talking about, right, rural Eastern Europe. and I was always much more interested in, like, reading, learning English, studying psychology and philosophy and things like that. And, especially when I became a teenager, I really felt alone. Right? Most of my people, most of my, you know, classmates and friends wanted to do just go go partying and drink and all the typical you know, dude stuff, and, I I just I I just felt alone, and I think this is, one of the catalysts that brings people into the world of conspiracy theories because I felt like, yes. The world doesn't understand me, and I wanna understand the world better. and I always felt like somehow people are lying to me because this this image that they're trying to project on me that this is live. This is what you should do. And keep in mind, we are talking about people who have been who have been under a brutal communist dictatorship for 60 plus years. Right? and they were conditioned to be afraid to be paranoid, to be to always teach me like, hey. Don't try to stand out. Don't try to be different or unique. because then the secret police is gonna take you away or something like that. So -- So so you got to start interrupting. So you got to the point. So, yeah, the Communist dictatorship

Antonio [00:04:50]:

And they told you, hey. Don't don't try to stand up, but but so you are under that rule. So you're like, no. No. That doesn't make sense.

Csaba Borzási [00:04:56]:

Yes. because when I was born, I mean, there was a revolution in 18, 89 in in Romania when Nikolay at South Chesco, which was the dictator of Romania got overthrown. but my parents were still, you know, they still grew up in that world. And when I was growing up in the nineties, it was basically like Russia in the nineties. So total chaos, anarchy, sky high inflation for years, I just felt like, you know, things aren't clicking. Like, there must be something else as well. And then I started, as I started reading more and more, especially on the internet, ideas that are conspiratorial by nature spread easier than, let's just say scientific ideas or or or something like that. And as I started discovering this world, I was like, holy moly. Like, yes. I always knew there was something fishy about this. Yep. I always knew there was something fishy, and now this is the real truth that somebody has been keeping from me. the government, the school system. Well, most people didn't even know about these things where I grew up. but but I I up, like, oh, yeah. The banking system, that is evil. Like, there's inflation and stuff. Big pharma. I mean, this must be evil. evil. Why not? Their whole business model is getting people addicted to stuff. And then it went deeper and deeper from this point.

Antonio [00:06:18]:

One thing you mentioned in, about I guess feeling alone in my book, converting conspiracy theories. Hopefully, I'll get this video kinda switch around. I talk about the fame model. It's f a m e. f stands for feeling powerless and insignificant. I don't know about you, but at the time, I when got into conspiracy theories. I was introduced to Alex Jones. Actually, met this guy, a Barb, white guy, leather jacket. He had a pocket constitution. Anybody listening, if you see somebody a pocket constitution, turn around. Run. It's a red flag. It's a red flag. So at the time, I felt like powerless and significant, but I also wanted to be the hero. a victim, but I wanted to be the hero. Hey, everybody. Look at this. I got the secret information. so that's that was one of the biggest things And then in regards to, the secret information in, like, the banking cartel, etcetera, these ideas go back thousands of years, and it usually revolves around the Jews. I'll just say it. It's usually the Jews. And if you've noticed, you know, for thousands of years, they have this thing called blood LIVO, l i b e l. That's the idea that Jews were killing Christian babies, like, 1000 years ago. Now, you know, with the with the, the event of prevention of QAnan I think people that whoever is responsible for QAnon got smart. They know they can't say it's the juice because that's really bad optics. So instead, they're like, it's Hollywood elite. I'm like, but you're still saying when you say Hollywood elite, you're saying the Jews. It's a secret to, racist dog whistle to them. So I think they've got smart in changing it from the Jews to Hollywood elite and to democrat and satanic pet and just freaking mind boggling.

voice over [00:08:04]:

Thanks for listening to escaping the rabbit hole. To get instant access to the newest episodes of the podcast, and the first three chapters of Antonio's newest book, go to and enter your first name and best email and smash the button that says, get the podcast.

Antonio [00:08:23]:

So let me ask, what was your perspective on mental health? growing up first now.

Csaba Borzási [00:08:30]:

Well, I didn't know much about mental health when I was growing up. I was always interested in psychology. And I realized that lots of people around me are alcoholics or depressed, but it's just considered normal because it's like, hey. This is what people do. Right? again, keep in mind, we're talking about Eastern Europe here. It's famous for being full of alcoholics and people who are depressed just look at, like, Russians nowadays even. and, now mental health, I have a bachelor's degree in cognitive psychology. My wife is a is, we we constantly talk about these things. My my the the thing I do nowadays is applied persuasion psychology. I basically help people come up with messages that move people that get them to to, do something to take action. and as as as I was deepening these skills. And I was I was becoming a professional, copywriter at one point whose job is to come up with messages again that move people. retroactively, I realized more and more things that were happening to me. So I was basically an actor in this story of, like, getting sucked into someone's content. all those ideas seemingly making sense, although in reality, they are full of all sorts of different, cognitive, you know, dissonances and all sorts of false and errors, but I did feel like, oh, yeah. I mean,

Antonio [00:09:57]:

most of it makes sense. So it must be legit, right, because it's it's kind of makes sense. Did it make sense logically, or did it make sense emotionally, or was it, you know, the idea of sell emotion follow-up with

Csaba Borzási [00:10:08]:

Well, both, it also made I think it's also important to, for something to make sense logically at least to a certain degree, right, and it's not that hard to put together a logical argument that might not withstand a peer review trial, but might, might seem logical heuristically. But in terms of emotions, of course, just like you said, I felt felt like an outsider. I felt like a black sheep. I felt I was very anxious when I was a team. I had long hair as well. I I got sucked into the rocker culture as well, which, again, correlates very closely with lots of right wingers and piercer theories. Not saying they're bad people. In rebels. Right? In rebels. Yeah. Oh, and the same thing. Like, I as I said, I grew up in the Translivenia region of Romania, which belonged to Hungary for, like, a 1000 years before the 1st World War. So after the 1st World War, it got annexed to Romania. So me as a minority Hungarian growing up there, that also added to the this rebel spirit. It's like, oh, yeah. I am a minority. The majority is trying to push me down. He's trying to eradicate my culture. and, And this this whole things basically created the mindset of, like, I'm a rebel and I wanna find out the deeper hidden truth. I was always interested in in in information. Even now, one of my guiding principles in life is to, figure out, you know, is to get as close as possible to understanding how the world and the human mind works. And that was there even then, but I got sidetracked because the persuasion power of conspiracy theories is much stronger than the persuasion power of, like, peer reviewed,

Antonio [00:11:47]:

meta studies about the COVID vaccine, for example. Because because those peer reviewed studies are sorry for my language. Fucking Super boring. Yeah. I think science could do a better. it it'd be nice if they can find a way to bridge it to, to have some kind of translation, even on, studies saying, hey. Here's here's the human terms. And if you think about There's some copywriters out there that talk about I just want to in particular, Michael Mentu, he is the kind of borders on conspiracy theories. He talks about taking studies and then finding that little grain, the little grain, the little grain, the little grain of truth, and then kind of beefing it up and making it sound it sounds sexy and exciting. Yeah. That's what the unique mechanism is about. The unique mechanism of the problem and the solution,

Csaba Borzási [00:12:34]:

just finding a logical seemingly logical connection between 2 things, analogies, because most people don't have the time and the energy, and they just don't wanna put in the effort to understand things. They just wanna they just want ready made, like belief systems just here. There you go. Does it correlate with your deeper beliefs? Yes or no. If it does, then they're gonna absorb it. If no, they're gonna reject it right off the bat.

Antonio [00:13:00]:

this ties into your idea or your about Budapest being kind of depressing at the time, especially what you see on the outside is gonna kinda who's gonna have an impact on you. 6 months after 9:11, I was at a bar in, just outside Detroit, Michigan. Met this guy, like I said earlier, he had the the, biker jacket with a pocket constitution. I think we're talking about 911 or something, and then he asked me, do you know who Alex Jones is? When I told him I didn't, he unleashed everything. He told me about, like, the new world order, stolen crossbones, the shadow government, all these, like, kind of buzzwords. And then That because I've been depressed, like, pretty much most of my life. That helped to explain, oh, this explains why I'm depressed. It's not things on the inside, it's the outside world. It's not your fault. It's, again, it's a copywriting strategy. It's not your fault. It's them who are trying to keep you down. It's us versus them. It's you. Exactly. And that's what made me addicted to, you know, Alex Jones. So one one thing I remember, Alex Jones One of his documentaries, he had this was a 9 11 2 documentary, and they there's one little clip where he says something about, alternative media. It's and I know exactly why he positioned it this way. He was talking about something, then he said the alternative media. Boom. And the the video went on him. Like, oh, yeah. And, like, you're framing yourself as the alternative media. And we see, how that how that's gone over the past few few years. But you know what? I think Trump really notch it up when he was smart when he called fake news. First, if you take the idea of alternative medium, boring, Fake news is a sexy.

voice over [00:14:37]:

Is your mental and emotional health being affected by a loved 1 trapped in conspiracy theories? If so, discover how Antonio can help you set boundaries and reclaim your mental well-being. Book your free 20 minute consultation call by going to slash call. That's escaping the rabbit hole dot comforward/cal.

Antonio [00:15:05]:

So what's one idea that you think majority of people get wrong about conspiracy theorists?

Csaba Borzási [00:15:12]:

One idea that people get wrong about conspiracy theorists. I think they I think they try to convince them with facts and it's really, really hard because it's mostly an emotional thing. I was also, like, I was the one trying to convince people of, hey. Can't you see how there's chemtrails, how they're trying to poison you, how there's a new world order, there's illuminati, their CIA, you know, sex slaves, beta slaves. Right? can't you Yeah. I read a book. I read, like, a 600 page book about how the CIA's, like, adults children. And then systematically deconstructs their, their psyche that fragments it and then creates sex slaves and delta slaves, which were supposed to be the killer. you can activate remotely. Was that was that Fritz Spring Meyer?

Antonio [00:16:11]:

Yes. Exactly. It was. You know, he actually got in trouble for all bank Robert. Yeah. It's not even his real name. He got he got in trouble for a bank, Robbie. I think it was, like, trying to blow something up. Yeah. It's so funny. I remember Fritz Springmier, like, reading that stuff like, oh my god. Like, this guy has the knowledge. And then but it's funny with you know, you said you're a minority, in your country at the time. compare it was like, was it, I guess, was it color minority or more ethic ethically minority?

Csaba Borzási [00:16:39]:

An ethnic minority because yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So me growing up is,

Antonio [00:16:45]:

well, Mexican, Italian, probably like 50% Mexican or whatever. I don't know how I grew up into Brightwing because my parents are teachers. I was raised being liberal. you know, like, take care of the con I'm not saying that conservatives don't believe this, but it Liberals's generally wanna have social serve more social services. I don't know how I fell in the right wing the foodery. I, at one point, I was taking some of Alex Jones arguments. actually, I I wrote a small blog at myspace years ago about, I think the title was since when did I become an immigrant? It's almost like my way to demonize other people. And I don't know how I ever fell into that garbage. Other idea of convincing people, with facts. If you haven't gotten this book, Chaba, get this book how to have impossible conversations. It is a phenomenal book. It's about street of histology. It's a good way to help people to rethink their positions. One question I really love in there is a scaling question. It's on a scale of 0 to 10. How confident are you in the belief that the CIA is creating, creating sex slaves. Mhmm. And if and the book says if it's a really high number, like, in, like, a 9 or 10, there's a good chance that they have no evidence for it and it's a moralistic belief. Maybe and I think you see if it's, like, a 8 or lower. Let's say if somebody says 7, you go, why don't you choose, like, a, a 6 or a 5? you get them to start introducing them out into their own position. And that only like the book says, it only works if somebody is willing to have a conversation. Yeah. If they're not gonna scream at you.

Csaba Borzási [00:18:26]:

Mhmm. Yeah. I love it. I I've heard about this methodology before, a version of it, at least, but, probably means I don't really apply it which is ironic because that's my job is to is to is to influence people to do something, yet I can't really, influence my parents or my I mean, convincing or influencing your family members is the worst. It's the hardest thing ever because it's like you're attached to them emotionally. So you get sucked into this whole game, and it pisses you off. Right? and and you use it and you just lose your frame.

Antonio [00:18:57]:

So this brings up a point about, an experience I had yesterday, so I told you before this, like, My girlfriend and I were caregivers for ninety one year old neighbors in a nursing home. And, well, I went over there yesterday. This lady she's there taking care of her mom. And as I'm walking away to go check on her on our neighbor, she said, oh, you need to watch the sound of freedom. As soon as she told me that, I'm like, It's not a bitch. It's a movie that a lot of right wingers and QAnon phonetics are pushing us about. Oh, I see. You're not talking about. and it falls back the idea of your, it it don't get me wrong. pedophiles are fucked. They're disgusting. My opinion is put a bullet to that. Whatever. And This, how do I say this movie? You met at some of this. Apparently, Tim Ballard, the guy that the movie's based off of is very loose with reality. It sounds like, you know, the movie taken? This sounds like a much -- Mhmm. -- like, a worse version of taken. a lot of, conspiracy theories are claiming the movie's been banned in movie theaters. they claimed it was banned in a a chain of movie theaters called AMC here in the States. And even the the CEO came out on Twitter. He's like, no. Like, we've already sold, like, a million tickets. You guys are lying. And, like, the idea that they're banning, like, oh, they're, like, the idea is they're showing the movie, but they're telling people it's sold out. I'm like, why would they they could have just not put the movie in the movie theater to begin with. like, these huge logical leaps.

Csaba Borzási [00:20:30]:

Mhmm. I think it's a typical narrative that happens all the time when you have something that's a bit a little bit too attach, to detached from reality and then somebody comments on it or something or somebody wants to point this out. And it's like, Oh, no. They're trying to ban it because they know it's the truth. Yeah. It plays very well into the narrative of of QAnan and the liberals and the government and everything, and especially post Epstein, right, especially since then, it's a it's a really nice little

Antonio [00:21:01]:

argument to have if they want to. Oh, so one of the interesting thing, points out the movie. The actor, the main actor, Jim Kavizio, I think his name is. Mhmm. He's talked about Q and A before, and I think he's meant he might have mentioned something about Adrenochrome. I could be wrong with the like drinking a lot and whatnot. He claims he's against pedophilia, which is a good thing. At the same time, he's a staunch Catholic. Like, how, yeah, how are you claiming that you're against pedophilia, but you're not calling out one of the largest organizations that have protected priests of hurting kids that just boggles my mind. And this lady at the nursing home, y'all said, oh, you need you need to watch this movie. And I was like, oh, god. Mhmm. And I don't wanna get angry in the nursing homes. I'm not trying to, set any other old people off. So I went up. I told her, I'm like, listen. I'm like, and then she it's funny. She brought this argument, like, oh, we don't need to pay attention to AI and the aliens alien idea of aliens are coming out of the US government, and we don't have to pay attention to climate change. This is important. It's funny when the one of the biggest revelations oh, aliens are real. Conspiracy, there's like they're like, oh, no. Let's focus on this fake satanic pedophilia something. Like, dude, the biggest conspiracies here. Why are we not looking at it? which kinda boggled my mind. So at one point, I kinda shut it down. I'm like, you know what? I'm like I could have been more emotionally but if I see her again, I'm actually gonna get a list of a local, organizations that help kids and go up to her. But here, here's a list. If you wanna help, call this con call this information. I was actually at a hypnosis conference this past weekend. I told you earlier, I did a talk on conspiracy theories. one of my friends there, she told me she had a client. She's in the UK. She had a client that told her, like, hey, they're they're keeping kids trapped in the tunnels under London. So my friend, the the hypnotherapy, she just played into the into reality. She's like, really? She's like, come on. Let's go right now. Let's go rescue these kids. And, of course, she shut off. She's like, let's go rescue these kids. And she's like, listen. I'm a mom. If this is happening, I will I really honestly wanna stop this. And that lady, she just, like, instantly shut it down. The, the idea of satanic pedophiles has been around for 1000 of years just because it's easy to demonize pedophiles because they're evil people.

Csaba Borzási [00:23:26]:

Yeah. I mean, if you think about it from an evolutionary psychologist, point of view. it just makes sense. It's one of the the most evil things you can do to children. Right? And and people are afraid of that. So totally mentioned that it's been around 4000 years as well as like, hey. There's this dark cabal who is, like, trying to control you and lying to you, everyone's lying to you, and this is big conspiracy. Well, I don't know about you, Neil, but, if I if I try to tell a secret to a few people if it's out very, very fast. Like, the amount of extreme professional that would have to be in the US government to keep things like aliens and the lizard people are real secret. It ain't happening. No. Especially in a culture which which, which is super individualistic. And, everybody just wants to make more money and and be known for something or something. There will be so many whistleblowers.

Antonio [00:24:19]:

and cameras everywhere. Like, everything's being recorded. So -- Yeah. -- freaking blab. Someone even went out and drunk with a blab. And that goes back to the night. But still, but still, what if What if? And that's that's the powerful part. It's like, yeah. Maybe 99%.

Csaba Borzási [00:24:33]:

It's nothing, but what if

Antonio [00:24:36]:

In my book, Converting conspiracy, there's here's another shameless plug. I think it's in chapter 10. There's a a it's about questions I mentioned how Alex Jones will give you little kernels of truth. And then he'll say, oh, if they lied to you about x, what else have they lied to you about? And your your mind just spins out of control. Then you're, oh, man, they've lied about this and this and this. And you started connecting the dots before you know it, you think you're an info war or an info warrior that's gonna Mhmm. Gonna protect a bunch of kids from evil satanic pedophilia.

Csaba Borzási [00:25:13]:

It's funny that -- But before that, you buy his supplements. and his info product and his everything.

Antonio [00:25:20]:

I wanna figure out which copyright there was a copyright. If you know what his name was, there was a copywriter that was helping to sell some of his stuff. What So Alex Jones, I tell people that it's more I'm sure you've probably heard of us hold debacle of, getting sued over Sandy Hook Families. Yes. Yes. It's more ethical to sell heroin than to make money off dead kids. I'm sure. I mean, you having a kid now. I'm sure you would probably agree.

Csaba Borzási [00:25:46]:

Yeah. It's it's really despicable what they did. But, you know, I think it highlights something that I was really thinking about thinking a lot lately because here in Hungary, the government is super right wing now. They've been on power since 2010. and they're super populist as well, and they're becoming more and more paranoid. And they're indoctrinating the whole, I mean, not the whole, but especially the older people, people who live in the countryside and the the the lower socioeconomic state people to be very wary of outsiders and migrants and and all these things. But what I realized is that the reason why he's doing it, the reason why Joe Rogan has turned super right wing, the reason why even, like, Jordan Peters who used to look up to really, like, a lot He's just I I feel like he's losing it. Right? Elon Musk, again, trying to totally turn a Twitter into an echo chamber The reason why they're doing that is because this type of messaging converts way better than the reason based a chain. And they just wanna make money and they want influence. Us versus them. Yeah. And it's emotionally much more manipulative That's also why you mentioned this. I don't know if it is in the podcast or before it, but you mentioned that, these, health sales letters or which usually out to right wing older audiences or or or the financial ones. They always have some sort of paranoid story, or they always have some sort of scare tactics. and the enemy and us versus them. Oh, yeah.

Antonio [00:27:22]:

And I -- It just works. Soured me from doing copywriting for, like, the health space and I'm like, it pops me because I know they could easily pull me down another rabbit hole. I'm like, dude, I don't I I avoided going to the capital riots once. I don't wanna go back. I don't wanna be in that position ever again.

voice over [00:27:41]:

To get instant access to the newest episodes of the podcast, and the first three chapters of Antonio's newest book, go to, and enter your first name and best email and smash the button that says, get the podcast.

Antonio [00:27:57]:

Let me ask, what was if if you can remember it, what was your your first thought after you stop believing in conspiracy theories. If you can remember if you can't remember, what what do you think it might have been?

Csaba Borzási [00:28:09]:

I distinctly remember when I was, like, At that point, I was believing in chemtrails, in lizard people, in a sense, in the illuminati, the new world order, the satanic cult all these things. I've been also going to Shamani Kemp's heat, in in Hungary where I was doing, like, you know, walking on ashes and transbreeding and meditation and stuff like that. And and and and and I I I I was a student at that point. And at some point, I re I I started feeling like, dude, like, there are there are inconsistencies everywhere. Like, there's leaky stuff here and there, and it just doesn't add up. Like, in a in a in a vacuum, this theory kind of makes sense, but if you combine it with this, it doesn't make sense. And it's like, what the hell is happening? And I just started thinking more and more into this into this. And I distinctly remember it was a weekend day. I just went for a walk and suddenly just dawned on me, like, Dude, what if they these these cons people like Alex Jones and and David died, they are the ones who are lying to me because they wanna exploit my attention. What if what if all these shamans and these these people who claim to know the truth they are the ones that they're doing the is it's like Russian propaganda, the same the same thing. If we wanna do something like bom a nuclear power plant, we accused the other of bombing the nuclear power plant. Right? and suddenly it just felt like I felt betrayed. I felt sick. I became sick, actually, for a for a few days, and I was sick of myself of of being misled for so long. And, and I felt like I I I can't believe I I bought into this. Like, now it's starting to make sense. And I I felt like such a superior human being to everybody else. I was preaching. Like, you don't understand. This is the truth. Why don't you accept this? Why don't you accept this? It's totally logical. and then I I really felt like a a Jackass.

Antonio [00:30:18]:

question. you don't have to comment on this because I know there's been some links between narcissism and conspiracy theories. Do you ever did you ever associate having narcissistic narcissistic tendencies, or do you think that conspiracy theories might have exploited that element in you? Cause I have knowledge. You don't have this. I need to give this to you. You need to listen to me.

Csaba Borzási [00:30:38]:

So I definitely had narcissist tendencies. I still do, in a sense, and and it definitely exploited that, especially when it comes to, like, feeling superior, fruiting unique, Yep. as someone who understands something and others don't. Right? So I'm better than you in a sense.

Antonio [00:31:00]:

Did you feel more superior once you got pulled into this stuff? Like, you'd always been looking for something. You're lonely. Then you find it. Then you're like, oh my god. I have this. I feel superior.

Csaba Borzási [00:31:08]:

Oh, yeah. Definitely. because in in my real life, I was basically a little depressed. I was super slim. At first, I was a little fat, then I was super slim. I was having trouble with the ladies because I constantly fell in love with someone, but then I was so afraid to tell them. And I was just you know, until it it accommodated in being friends owned every single time because everybody knew except me. so when I when I started to to get sucked into conspiracy theories, it really felt like, oh, yes. Now I have something, something that gives me value.

Antonio [00:31:46]:

Partially. I so you explain this stuff feels like like, It almost feels like you're repeating my story. Oh, that, that reminds me. So the idea of lizard people I use it as my barometer of what was bullshit. We used to do a conspiracy movie night in Detroit. 2000 5 to, like, May 2006,

Antonio [00:32:10]:


Antonio [00:32:12]:

we would have about 10 boil to people. So we tried to, like, make a light of everything and have fun. And, At the time, it was also paranoid. Didn't help. What was I doing? Oh, cocaine. That made things worse for us. It was cocaine just ramps up dopamine. So that definitely made the paranoia worse. When people would ask me, like, I distinctly remember it one time, somebody's like, oh, what what about David? I can telling you. I'm like, oh, I'm not that crazy. I just believe this other bullshit. Mhmm. What was your what was your what conspiracy theory was too crazy for you?

Csaba Borzási [00:32:47]:

You know, a few minutes ago, I said that I believe this one that it's hard to remember exactly what I believed. now that I think about it, probably there with reptilian people seems like believing that there are legit reptilian people might have seemed crazy. at the same time, I was, I was getting information from all sorts of source all sorts of sources, including here in Hungary that, yes, we are the descendants of like, the Orion Belt planets from the Orion Belt, and there was Atlantis and the Hungarians are actually the descendants of of of of the atlanteans. And Jesus was hungary. You can actually -- And the -- -- more important, like, oh my god. Like, of course, I have this knowledge because I'm part I'm part of this lineage. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, Hungarian's there descended from the Huns and from like Mongolians. They're really unique people in Europe because the language is totally different from everything else and, like, lineage wise, they're also totally different. So it's like some aliens put into the middle of europe. Right? Because of this, even to this day, and this is what Orban Victor, really, exploits well. that, oh, you are so special. You're just kept down by by, Brussels, and they want you to keep you, you know, occupied,

Antonio [00:34:08]:

instead of having peace with Russia. the audio cut out, you you cut out when you said something about Brussels. You he said you guys Yeah.

Csaba Borzási [00:34:16]:

So so the European Union wants to, like, basically, keep you down because they know that you know the truth and, you know, that you are the real, smart person. Right? And then you know, they know that you know that this whole war with Ukraine and and Russia is just a scam because the west just wants to exploit this Right? so all sorts of these things I was exposed to. So I don't remember exact getting back to your question. I don't remember exactly what was too crazy. I did believe in a satanic quote. I mean, there might be some people if there are two people there. I I'm sure there are some state tenants who are pedophiles out there, but it's not a organized countrywide system. them. That's for sure.

Antonio [00:35:02]:

and the idea that because I think if somebody is a pedophile, then you generally don't want other to know because they're worried about being outed. So I don't think they're all gonna -- Yeah. -- get together. Like, hey. I'm I'm one of the most evil pieces of shit on the planet. Let's talk about or something to I don't think that would work. I think people would be so ashamed, but, yeah, no, we're not talking about it.

Csaba Borzási [00:35:22]:

Unless they form something like a really secret society where it's like, if you can't get out because we're gonna assess and eat you if you wanna get out. and this is where the whole Jeff Jeffree Epstein things comes in. So, I think that was really I mean, probably probably he was a asshole. probably he exploited, underage people. Probably he also did very shady deals with all sorts of high level people, but but blaming him for everything or, like, using this as a springboard to something like qanon,

Antonio [00:35:57]:

It's -- Yeah. It's a bit too much, I think. And, we're we're gonna wrap up pretty soon, but the idea on Jeffrey thing. The girl that broke kinda broke the story open was I think her name is Virginia. I forgot her last go after whatever her name is. So the idea that that these elite are powerful enough to kill Epstein, but they're letting her run amok is I don't you see what I'm saying? I see, but, oh, look. the, Epstein didn't kill himself. The elite killed him. Like, then why are they why these elite letting this go run wild? They could have easily just killed her and shut everything up, but I don't know. It just

Csaba Borzási [00:36:33]:

that's that's a good idea. Maybe they they could have, maybe the the idea behind this is that they if the elite killed the girl, then that would be confirmation that there is an elite I I think ultimately it doesn't matter. We're not gonna find out the real truth anyway. And, ultimately, I don't care, to be honest, what I care about is bingo. What what specific, manipulation and, and and brainwashing and propaganda techniques. Certain factions and certain people are using to, exploit the belief systems of others. And this is true for both the right wing as well as the left wing because both sides are doing it. what I've just seen is that the right wing is having a renaissance nowadays. And with especially with Elon buying Twitter, it has become an echo chamber there. And it's like, you know, publicly,

Antonio [00:37:28]:

don't you mean x? Didn't he just read? Oh, x. Yeah. Now it's x. Yeah.

Csaba Borzási [00:37:33]:

it wasn't there something wasn't there something called threats that was just happening for, like, 2 or 3 days? What happened to that? I don't know. to be honest, but apparently, it's not doing so well, but I never checked it out. You know, I'm busy being a a a first time dad. But, yeah, ultimately, the thing is I just wanna find out the methodology. I just wanna observe the methodology just like a scientist. because that's what I consider myself to be. The methodology behind certain manipulation, you know, techniques. Right? And what I've seen is that right wingers use it much more consistently and all the things correlate really well. Like, how there's there was this thing called operation infection with a k that the, KGP then FSB, developed. precisely to destabilize the west. This is precisely for things like, destabilizing the election for using troll farms, So that thing and the Russian propaganda and the right wing groups all around Europe, that tie into the Russian propaganda and Elon and now Jordan Peterson and Joroggan, all these things and Tucker Carlson. Like, it's like I'm not saying there's a cabal between them or something. I think they just realized that, hey, this gets more attention. It gets us more power. money and more importantly, most importantly, I think it gets us rabid followers. Yes. Look at trumpers. I mean, It's just wild. It's the same as, like, hardcore urban Victor friends here. It's like, no matter what he does, like, could he could he could murder a child in front of them, and they would still, like, forgive him. It's like, oh, but that child was like a q 1 on demon or something.

Antonio [00:39:18]:

Oh my god. There was this, guy in California that, I actually knew somebody here that knows him this guy from, like, a, surf community. Apparently, he took around Mexico. He thought his 2 kids were, were satanic and up killing his own kids. And and jail, he started, like, deradocizing. Like, you know, I'm sorry. You you're an asshole. Have you kind of distilled how to make rabbit followers using some of the frameworks that that, the right wing kind of provocateurs have been using?

Csaba Borzási [00:39:50]:

I think yes. I think I've because one of the things that I did, 2 years ago is to go back to the source of of the people who invented, scientific advertising and direct response marketing to Cloud Hopkins and to, all sorts of old school, so called OG copywriters. And I broke down 100 of their sales letters during a 100 days as a public YouTube challenge. And I posted all the videos on YouTube. You can go watch it. That was amazing. I'm gonna,

Antonio [00:40:16]:

below this, if you're on my website, keep it in the rabbit hole below it, I'll have a lead to the, amount. Playlist.

Csaba Borzási [00:40:24]:

Yep. So based on this, I also distilled, like, I I tried to really figure what were the common themes, what were the strategies that they were using, the the the secret strategies, or the not so secret ones. And I put together something called Chabas copy memoirs, which exposes this. And, ultimately, I came up with something called the neuroplastic belief shifting method that I think was happening, and we don't have time to go into it right now. But, I think it's a great prototype to basically sell any idea to anyone and shift their beliefs In fact, get them to convince themselves, to establish a new one buying belief, a so called new one buying belief, so that from that point on, it doesn't matter what anybody else says because your solution is superior and better and different compared to anybody else's. So, yes, it could be used, but the question is, a, do I wanna use it? No. because I have a soul and I'm not a psychopath unlike many politicians. and 2, what type of people would this attract? Right? I I don't wanna attract, like, people who are rabbit followers in a way. I know that some courses and some groups try to sell this idea that, oh, you should get rabbit followers, but No. I I I wanna make a meaningful impact in the world. And, it's not something that I'm interested in. Right? but lots of copywriters, lots of marketers. They're just after the They just they they're gonna sell you snake oil if they can. And it's the same story. Right? 5000 years ago, there was still the 6th snake oil salesman just as today. Just look at ClickBank.

Antonio [00:41:58]:

Yeah. So if you wanna learn ethical persuasion, game of is a website. Right? Yes. One last question. What does escaping the rabbit hole mean to you personally?

Csaba Borzási [00:42:13]:

Well, it's a good question. as I said, one of my guiding principles in life is to get as close as possible to understanding how the world really works. So for me, it's to get the clutter out and to find the source of the truth if that's possible. I know it's if you're never gonna find the 100% truth because it always comes through a filter, right, no matter what information source use unless you're maybe like a nuclear physicist where where it's like it's called hard physics. You can't argue with that. And even my brain is a filter. Right? I also have my own, belief system. I also have my doubt, my doubts, and my irrationalities, no matter how hard I how hard I try to, to not be influenced by them. So, basically, it means to figure out what's bullshit, what's obviously bullshit, and to figure out what's the highest likelihood being the truth and then and then go from there and then try to influence others of this as well. But if they're not interested, then not force it on them unlike most conspiracy theorists.

Antonio [00:43:29]:

That's one thing. When I, came out of conspiracy theories, I was gonna comment what you said earlier 2007, 2008, and moved to Kauai from Michigan. And then I thought to myself, like, what if all this is real? What if you aluminize real and sex slaves and death? I don't care. And then it it it helped to loosen everything up. And from there, everything started to fall apart. Thank you so much for jumping on. I am this is actually great. Getting perspective for from somebody that knows how to engineer persuasion.

Csaba Borzási [00:44:02]:

Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. And I could also talk for a long time about this because there's so many cool nuances here. we could go way deeper into the specifics of how these manipulation techniques work, what they exploit. but if you're interested in that, go learn direct response copywriting one of the places you could do, do it on is my website, game of and I also have, like, a cool cheat sheet that you might be interested in. game of forward slash copywriting secrets since we're talking about secrets, and that's gonna give you all the biggest insights

Antonio [00:44:36]:

I'll put the link below the video.

Csaba Borzási [00:44:38]:

Cool. That's gonna give you the biggest insights. What I've learned after this 100 day proven sales that are a breakdown challenge. And, if you're smart, you're gonna discover that some of the most of these techniques are the exact techniques used by all the biggest, you know, influencers, as well.

Antonio [00:44:55]:

Thank you. And if anybody, would like us to do a video in the future about how, you know, like, how to create a conspiracy theory, that is actually a good idea. If anybody's interested in that, drop a comment below and we will go from there.

Csaba Borzási [00:45:08]:

Cool. Thanks.

voice over [00:45:11]:

Thanks for listening to escaping the rabbit hole. To get instant access to the newest episodes of the podcast and the first three chat of Antonio's newest book, go to, and enter your fur name and best email and smash the button that says, get the podcast.

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Escaping The Rabbit Hole
Escaping The Rabbit Hole

Former conspiracy theorist, Antonio Perez, discusses how to deal with family and friends that have fallen down the rabbit hole.

About the Author

Antonio Perez, author of Converting Conspiracy Theorists, is a former conspiracy theorist.  He helps friends and family members of conspiracy theorists to improve their mental and emotional health, and to set clear healthy boundaries with their conspiracy theory addicted loved ones.

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