Ancient Personality Flaw Fueling Every Conspiracy Theorist, Unearthed 2000 Years Ago

Antonio [00:00:00]:
Discover the deep seated personality flaw that caused my guests to fall down the rabbit hole in the 1st place. This personality flaw that was first discovered over 2000 years ago affects every cultist and conspiracy theorist. Can you guess what it is? Keep listening to find out.

voice over [00:00:18]:
Welcome to escaping the rabbit hole, hosted by former conspiracy theorist Antonio Perez, Author of converting conspiracy theorists. Antonio looks at conspiracy theories from multiple angles, such as how do conspiracy theorists impact their family and friends. How can they escape the grip of conspiracy theories, and why do they fall down the rabbit hole in the 1st place? You'll Discover strategies to set clear boundaries with people stuck in dangerous conspiracy theories and improve your mental well-being. Here's your host, Antonio Perez.

Antonio [00:00:51]:
Hello. It's Antonio with escaping the rabbit hole .com. In this podcast, I have a, guest that I just became aware of about, I wanna say 3 months ago. He's in the hypnosis world, and he has a a unique take on how he got into the hypnosis world. Today, I have Grant Oppenberger from grantmepeace.com. That's grantmepeace.com. Hey, Grant. Thanks for coming on.

Grant [00:01:19]:
Thanks. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

voice over [00:01:22]:
You know what? I always hear that big head of me. One time, I want somebody to be like, you know what? Why the hell am I doing this? Why you having me on?

Grant [00:01:29]:
You know what? I actually gotta go.

voice over [00:01:31]:
How did you get into hypnosis? So at first, I wanna kinda get into that, and then we can get into how you fell down the actually, you know what? I think I know your answer's gonna be good. Can you just let me, I guess, follow-up with that question. How did you get into hypnosis?

Grant [00:01:46]:
Yeah. So hypnosis kinda plays a part in my interest in conspiracy theories As I'm sure you

voice over [00:01:52]:
Yeah. As soon as I asked that question, my oh, that's why you mentioned that. Alright.

Grant [00:01:57]:
So, I've always been interested influential figures, I remember being, what, like, 5, maybe younger, being interested in infomercials, being interested in politics, the political Bates is all very interesting. I mean, it's it's showmanship. My father has always been a professional wrestling fan, and I grew up fan as well. So, I mean, it's what's the difference between politics and professional wrestling? It's not like brand show, and it caught my interest. I later got interested in cults and things of that variety. Just interested in how they work. I mean, My grandfather ran a wing of a commune that taught a lot of things that coincide with hypnosis, and so it kinda hit home a little bit. This wasn't a malicious cult or anything, but I was interested in how those works and how cult leaders could be so influential that they would have someone break away from their values and Start to listen to these people and do anything they wanted.

Grant [00:02:57]:
It was just fascinating in the fact that it was insane to me that it could happen. And As I would look into these things

voice over [00:03:06]:
question. Sorry. When you say it helps somebody to break that would cause somebody to break away from their values, do You think that they broke away from the values or they found or they represent another way to get to that same value?

Grant [00:03:20]:
I suppose that's the truth is, I mean, you have these specific values, but I think you can somewhat pace and lead someone into a different set of values because they're Similar, where you can go, oh, you have this value. Well, this this coincides with that value, and then you divert from it so much that it's not even as that original value. Okay.

voice over [00:03:40]:
You got, like, safety, and then you can paste them and lead them to maybe security. Oh, this family gives you security. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Grant [00:03:48]:
Okay. And then you're no longer safe in that cult.

voice over [00:03:51]:
So Yeah. You you own it or it's almost like you're no longer safe outside of the cult.

Grant [00:03:56]:
Yeah. True. This family.

voice over [00:03:57]:
Yeah. We we started a cult. Yeah. I don't have I don't have a mental bandwidth for that.

Grant [00:04:05]:
Oh, man. I was looking you for this. You're my leader.

voice over [00:04:10]:
Too much ADHD. There's no way I don't think I can pull that off. Yeah. You have

Grant [00:04:15]:
to have a structured game plan. Yeah. Also got interested in conspiracy theories. I mean, As a teenager on the Internet, how do you not come across conspiracy theories? They're everywhere. And My family, well, my grandfather immigrated here escaping the Nazis. So somewhere within me, I always have that. Well, the Government's not always the nicest people in the world. I've seen govern well, I haven't purse but I'm here because government slaughtered my family.

Grant [00:04:46]:
Yeah. And so I had that ingrained in a foundation of, well, don't always trust everything the government does, and then there's All this information on the Internet of, oh, the government's doing this and the government's doing that, and some of it is was silly. You know? I got into David I liked his stuff. I I originally liked his more spiritual stuff. Infinite love is only truth. Everything else is illusion. Just talking about vibration, about love, about, you know, all that new age stuff.

voice over [00:05:18]:
When when we used to run a conspiracy theory brewing view in Detroit, People would I I gotta put pictures on the on this blog post. We would one day by we're it was every Sunday, we do a conspiracy theory, and we would show, like, loose change, all the conspiracy movies, zeitgeist, all that. At one point, my friend my man my friend, who's a manager, went to the back. Actually, let me phrase it, Rephrase it. Not so much friend anymore because he's continued down, like like, the far right conspiracy. We kinda split there. He went to the back, came out with a good support as, like, make tentpole hats. So we it was like a competition.

voice over [00:05:55]:
Every Sunday, we get to the bar, we make tentpole hats, and we always use it as a way to, like, laugh at ourself. But, hey. I'm not that crazy. Mhmm. We would have, I remember one time in particular, somebody asked me, oh, what about the reptilian agenda? I'm like, Oh, I'm not that level crazy. I'm just as crazy. I think they're satanic pedophiles. It's all crazy across the board.

voice over [00:06:18]:
Mhmm.

Grant [00:06:19]:
Exactly. And so when I got into his stuff, I later saw his reptilian agenda stuff, and I didn't Except that is true in my map of reality within my narrative of what the world's like, but I thought it was interesting. I thought it was a fun a story, and so I would still watch it, get into it, and certain things kinda seep their way into my idea of reality. And so I'm getting into that. I'm watching Alex Jones simply because he's a crazy guy that's it's meant to be entertaining. I mean, that's

voice over [00:06:50]:
the story. Jumping around. Yeah. I was deep in Alex Jones. I don't know how, yeah, I don't know how I found that. Actually, I don't, you probably haven't seen the video. I ran into him not this past June, but almost, like, 2 years ago. Me and a, fellow hypnotist.

voice over [00:07:09]:
I don't know if you're familiar with Richard Barker, stage hypnotist. He was working the cruise ships out here, so he Contacting me, and, we we, as I say so he contacted me. I took him on a hike. We found a really nice beach. I know the way they were talking about, like, a lot of,

Grant [00:07:28]:
the

voice over [00:07:28]:
hypnotists are crazy. They believe in conspiracy theories. Then we mentioned Alex Jones. I'm like, I want a wingnut. 6 hours later, we're sitting at a, bar getting some food, and I look over and went, holy shit. Al Jones are walking past. So So I generally don't put thought that I don't believe in the law of attraction, but how the

Grant [00:07:45]:
hell do I attract him?

voice over [00:07:47]:
Of all that, how many I don't manifest $1,000,000. I manifest that So and then oh, so let me get a picture. And then I get a picture, then on back of my head, I'm like, oh, I can't show this on Facebook. I'm gonna look bad. Yeah. I got a video of me. I'll send it to you later. I got a video of me calling out calling Alex Jones out, basically, just saying that I quit believing you and I quit being paranoid.

voice over [00:08:10]:
Nice. What was crazy is 3 days before, I was in, Jason and that's do hypnosis online course. It's a 5 day course, and he's talking about, hey. You need a story about why you wanna do hypnosis online. In in that in that, class, I mentioned How I mentioned a story about how I thought, martial law was happening in Detroit, and the whole the whole pitch was, a this is I thought martial law was happening in Detroit, then I realized Altrails was bullshit. This is, like, 3 days before I ran into about it. So when I if I had been outside the restaurant and I saw him walking by, I've been, like, I woulda had enough time, like, oh my god. Let me talk about that.

voice over [00:08:48]:
But I was so nervous. I it went on my brain. I mean, that would've been the best sales pitch. I can just be like, you know what? This guy is a freedom fighter, and then going to my story and like and that's when I realized he's full of shit. That would've been such a great material for sales video. Such great. Alas. I'll just have I'll just have to wait for, for AI to step up its game.

Grant [00:09:11]:
Right. You're just waiting for him to cross your path again.

voice over [00:09:15]:
It's funny. That's when he was talking about how he's, He's broke and blah blah blah. Dude, you're on vacation in one of the most expensive place on the planet.

Grant [00:09:23]:
Oh, yeah. He has a thriving snake oil company.

voice over [00:09:26]:
Oh, yeah.

voice over [00:09:28]:
Oh, yeah. Subscribe to the podcast by going to www.escaping the rabbit hole.com. Add your first name and best email to the form and smash the button that says get the podcast. You'll get instant access when the newest episodes are released. Plus, you'll get the first 3 chapters of Antonio's newest book sent directly to your email.

voice over [00:09:50]:
What was your perspective on mental health Growing up versus now. Well,

Grant [00:09:57]:
I mean, my perspective on mental health hasn't really changed very much. You know? I mean, that's Something that's always been of value. You know? Questioning yourself, questioning why you believe what you believe has Pretty much always been something that's been there. But when you're caught up in believing crazy things, even when you question it, you're still justifying it to yourself. Mental health's important, but focusing on doom and gloom is not good for your mental health in any regards. Even simply just people that aren't conspiracy theorists that just thrive on watching the news, that's still not good for you constantly watching the news, not some. And so you see it on Any spectrum where people get gravitated towards that, but that's just human nature. You're trying to look out for threats because you're trying to survive.

voice over [00:10:43]:
It's a negativity bias. Yep. Mhmm.

Grant [00:10:47]:
So while it hasn't my viewpoint hasn't changed, my approach has changed a little bit simply because I kinda realized How they get you hooked into these things. And so I can question, wait. Am I falling for this right now? I think I am. Because before it would be, oh, man. Like, look at 911. Like, this building collapsed on its own. This must be George Bush, and they're going do martial law and whatnot and whatnot, and okay. Well, there's no martial law yet.

Grant [00:11:17]:
Okay. George Bush, he's not president anymore, so maybe that's not it. Yeah. Maybe the official narrative can be a little strange, but maybe that's the truth. Why do you have to question something and then immediately go to the other end of the spectrum. Like, why can't you have curiosity in the middle of going, I don't know anything. I don't know everything, certainly. Why does it have to be either this or that?

voice over [00:11:43]:
I like that point. It's it's okay to question something because we're nervous, but you don't wanna jump to media like, It's laser beam well, these assholes, and I could say that because I own this podcast. After the Maui fighters happened, all these people are like, fuck the laser beams. It's laser beams. I'm like, we talked earlier. Who gives a shit? It happened. So let's just say let's adopt the map of the, map of reality as laser beams. Okay.

voice over [00:12:06]:
Who gives a shit? How are we gonna help those people to rebuild? Or I don't know if if a lot of Hawaiians want our our our help to rebuild or if they just want Or just a support and keeping keeping the vultures from coming in, swooping their land up, and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. It's Conspiracy theorists focus on problems while the rest of people have to focus on solutions.

Grant [00:12:29]:
Exactly. 100%. When you're focused on problems, you're just notice more problems. It's not going help that you solve that this was Bigfoot. It's not going do anything that there's aliens Or there's not aliens and it's Project Blue Beam and the government. What does that have to do with anything?

voice over [00:12:46]:
You know, for rears, I had always believed that, oh, Project Blue Beam's real. It it sounds like it was a total fabrication. Vacation. There was some conspiracy theorist that just said there's a government program. There never was. It's a complete fabrication which It can and I understand why people don't want to stop leading conspiracy theories because it's embarrassing knowing you're wrong about something. Mhmm. Not fun.

Grant [00:13:10]:
Exactly. And I I even branched off from that into those, like, spiritual conspiracy theories, and I love The story of the Anunnaki and all that stuff. And then at one point, I realized I'm spending a lot of time looking at this stuff, looking up your light body and the Merkaba and whatnots. And who is this helping at all? This isn't helping a single person. It's not helping me, and it's not helping anyone around me. It's trivial fantasy information.

voice over [00:13:39]:
Yes. It's mental jerk information. And if you can Exactly. The video, you'll see what I just did. So I just talked to, a fellow hypnotic you know, I'm not gonna mention their name because they, they're evidence based person, but They are they asked me about Kundalini because I had a, Kundalini awakening. I mean, I mean, I forced it. Have you ever heard the concept of Kundalini? I'm sure you have.

Grant [00:14:05]:
Yeah. Yeah.

voice over [00:14:06]:
So 2000,

Grant [00:14:10]:
was

voice over [00:14:10]:
it 2001, I think? No. It was probably 2002, 2003. I heard about this, read about it on the Internet. It's like everything. And I'm very analytical, science minded. At the same time, I I had you had a lot more woo back then, but I heard about this oh, let me force myself to have a kundalini awakening. It sounds fun. Sounds like it.

voice over [00:14:30]:
Sounds like a hit of acid. That sounds fun. And, long story short, I just did this meditation. I imagine there was, like, a core to the base of my spine, like, bringing up energy into, like, root chakra. I imagine, like, massaging it. And Every time I would bring it up, I would tense, my, my taint, for lack of better words. I would tense the, almost created almost like a like a, pump. Every time I breathe in, I would tense out, like, doing a kegel kegel or whatever.

voice over [00:14:58]:
And It got to the point where the that started to, like, pump, automatically by itself. And next thing I know, like, this this is about the course over about an hour, maybe hour and a half. I got little tingles all over my body. When this so called energy came out to my Stomach. My stomach just started to kinda, spasm, by itself. It would kinda need over. It got to the point where It was, it felt very psychedelic. I almost imagine I was in a, like, an elevator of, like, light or energy, and I can I can hear the sound like a like a, almost like a humming sound in that? I can just feel like I was going up and down my spinal cord.

voice over [00:15:41]:
The, this light, whatever it was, at one point when it got to, like, my throat or I think it was my my forehead, I could see, like, this blue flame just it was the trippy thing. And then the next 6 month next 6 months, I had, really bad. I've always had I've Not anymore, but I had always had bad depression and anxiety to the point of, like, suicidal ideation years ago. But after I did this, my mental health got way worse. I my paranoia ramped up really bad. It was bordering psychosis slash almost schizophrenia. I had heard of a lot of people having psychosis induced meditation, and that definitely was it. So here's the warning.

voice over [00:16:22]:
If anybody, wants to force a kundalini, have a awakening, don't. I've heard that you want to prepare yourself first if you have any kind of, like, emotional blockages or any kind of deep rooted trauma, take care of shit first. Do not jump into that willy nilly. Not that I don't wanna say on this topic too much, but have you ever had any experience with that or heard about some of the, Some aspects of Kundalini?

Grant [00:16:44]:
I mean, I I've looked it up and stuff like that. I wouldn't say I have personal deep profound experiences worthy of sharing or anything like that, but I've certainly been interested in that kind of stuff. I got And got significantly less interested in any of that stuff when I found out about hypnosis, really. It all kinda just fluffed off because I noticed myself interested in all these different spiritual aspects and all these different teachings, and then I realized that all the parts that I liked, I would cherry pick what I like. Well, those are all the hypnotic parts. Those are all the parts about the subconscious mind, about the workings of the human experience and all that. And so, Rather than cherry picking what I like from all these different things, here it is on a silver platter for me.

voice over [00:17:29]:
Yeah. That's probably a

voice over [00:17:32]:
Sabre, Beth. Is your mental and emotional health being affected by a loved one trapped in conspiracy theories? If so, discover how Antonio can help you set clear boundaries and reclaim your mental well-being. Book your free 20 minute consultation call by going to www dot Escaping the rabbit hole .com/call. That's escaping the rabbit hole .comforward/call.

voice over [00:17:58]:
A lot of people who take erroneous thoughts about conspiracy theorists. What's the one idea that you think a majority of people get wrong about conspiracy theorists?

Grant [00:18:07]:
I think that people attack them, and I don't think that's right. Not physically, of course, but people I mean, yeah, it's fun to make fun of anyone. I I like to make fun of myself. I like to make fun of everyone, but not in front of them. I don't want their feelings to be here. Well, that's just human nature. But I think people pick on them when the truth is they're not trying to do anything bad. They're scared, It's not right to be mean to someone for being scared.

voice over [00:18:33]:
Yeah. If you see my Facebook post, I I can definitely gems. It's funny because I think, It's weird. I think I had felt shamed when I was a conspiracy theorist, and that's one thing that helped me. So sometimes I'm like, oh, I but on on the same token, There's the idea like, oh, we need to respect everybody's opinions. Bullshit. Didn't respect Nazis. There's some things.

voice over [00:18:57]:
I think if some things are shamed, they they go back in the closet. Sometimes it might be better because when you have politicians that are just endorsing q and I wacky stuff, it does not help. So I think there's a fine line. Sometimes, sometimes I think dangerous ideologies can just be shame. You can't get rid of them, but I think if you can shame them back into Staying in a little circle and saying quiet, it might be helpful at some point. I don't know. I'm not an expert on that.

Grant [00:19:26]:
Yeah. I think when it when it comes to anything that ends Doris's violence. I think that you get what you tolerate, so simply don't tolerate it.

voice over [00:19:35]:
Yeah.

Grant [00:19:35]:
So if that's shaming them, if that's any, However, you have to get it out of a centralized area of control, but then open discussion. Because if you're not talking to them, they're going to have their own ecosystem them of telling each other they're right, and you then create an in and out game, a win loss game. Yep. And everyone likes to play that game. So if you give them the opportunity, of course, they're going to take that. They're going to have their own little bubble of simply just having discourse and conversation, And they're going patiently eat it and take it 1 step further with complex equivalence, with cause and effect, and create lizard people are controlling the world Because we don't have this conversation. Oh, why do you feel this way? Oh, because the government has done bad things in the past. Well, why does that mean they're doing this right now? Oh, well, I don't really know.

Grant [00:20:22]:
I'm just kinda scared, you know Yeah. Once you get to that.

voice over [00:20:25]:
A good book, somewhere in my bookshelf. I don't know what it's, I don't remember what it's called. How to Have Impossible Conversations by Peter Bogassian. It's I think he coined the term street epistemology. It's a set of techniques to help somebody reevaluate their their beliefs. One question I really like in there that I'd included in my book, converting conspiracy theorists, is how confident are you on a scale of 1 to 10 That the reptilian agenda is real. And if whatever number, they're like, oh, like an 8, but, oh, why didn't you choose a sevens to help introduce Doubt into the equation.

Grant [00:21:05]:
Right. They do that with sales and all sorts of different things that will take me. Yeah.

voice over [00:21:10]:
I do that in sales, definitely. Because people, they think you're gonna ask, like, oh, why didn't you choose, like, a 9? So they're ready to get the fences up, and you're like, why didn't you choose a lower number? Then, like, oh, shit. It got pulled off.

Grant [00:21:22]:
Yeah. I I've learned that one before. I even was just, refreshing on some NLP stuff, and they're just talking about that too. That's good. I never thought of that with helping someone with their conspiracy theory beliefs. That's interesting way of approaching it.

voice over [00:21:35]:
Yeah. What was your first thought after you stopped believing in conspiracy theories?

Grant [00:21:41]:
I felt liberated. I felt like all that time I was searching for something, and I didn't realize it was, like, hypnosis, I just constantly was looking for things, and 90% of it was, well, this is silly. Well, this doesn't make sense and then sometimes getting caught in those silly and doesn't make sense, and then checking on myself and realizing, well, this thing I'm believing isn't serving me or anyone around me. Well, what am I looking for? And then finally, I found it. It was like, oh, it was right there in front of me this whole time. So it was pretty liberating. I like to with all sorts of different things, just kinda ask myself like, well, whose thoughts am I thinking? Where did they come from, and are they serving me? Those are the 3 questions I always ask myself with all sorts of different things, every little piece of my life because most of the time we're

voice over [00:22:29]:
That sound bite is I'm definitely gonna that's definitely gonna sound bite. I really like those questions.

Grant [00:22:34]:
Yeah. I I always encourage all of my clients to ask themselves that because oftentimes we're we're thinking thoughts that aren't our own. So whose thoughts are you thinking, and where did those come from? You got it from someone who got it from some structure, some systems, some belief, someone else, and are they serving you? Because maybe they're not your thoughts, but maybe they're helping you in life. Or maybe they are your thoughts, but they're not really working for you and where you wanna be. So can we let them go, and what can we fill its place with?

voice over [00:23:04]:
I like that. That's definitely gonna be gonna be a soundbite. So in my new book, 1 section is about how to transform self doubt. This is about How to, I guess, overcome gaslighting. How to overcome the self doubt that you've gotten getting from gaslighting from a a family member that's caught in the conspiracy theory slash cults. The study talks about the study I'm reading talks about four elements of narcissism that kinda play into conspiracy theories. 1 is on the underlying paranoia. 2 is the u the need to feel unique and special.

voice over [00:23:41]:
This conspiracy theories give that to people. Like, look what I have, and nobody else has. I've got this information. That's widely available to everybody on the Internet, but they think, like, only they know about it. There's the need to dominate and control. And you you've seen this in, like, q and on lately or Alex Jones' rabid followers that were attacking family members of Sandy Hook, they're just trying to dominate that. And then the 4th one, which I think is really interesting, is gullibility. The study talks about how conspiracy theorists can be extremely gullible because they think they are so smart that nobody can fool them.

voice over [00:24:16]:
By doing that, their defenses get lowered, and then they end up getting pulled. How many elements of Those 4 elements, do you think played into you, wanting, getting interested in conspiracy theories?

Grant [00:24:30]:
Yeah. So I'd say the majority of them, I would say, to this day, I'm still wanna feel special. I still have narcissistic tendencies, but I'd say most people do. To this day, I still want control, but I'd say most people do want to control certain aspects of your life. That's human nature. You want to at least control your emotions, control your thoughts, Control anything, even control your desire to no longer want to control. And so much of it is controlled throughout, but I'd say the biggest one would be gullibility, Where you think you know what's going on because once you

voice over [00:25:06]:
smart, nobody can fool me. I mean, you Exactly. Blow your defenses and, oh, you you got fooled. And those are the elements of, of, like, q and a on and those people. I think I've already we're already kinda seeing people. Oh, I didn't believe in that stuff. Is it I I get into deep down, like, oh my god. I looked like such a fool.

voice over [00:25:26]:
How did I get conned by that man? Mhmm.

Grant [00:25:30]:
Yeah. It it happens to a lot of people. I mean, conspiracy theories or anything where you're so certain about yourself that you don't even question your beliefs. And so once getting out of that, getting out of believing any of these these conspiracy theories, I mean, even, like, Stephen Greer's whole alien conspiracy theory, I was into that. And then I kinda Start to realize the flaw in them and their congruency with their message and who they are. And you start once you see that, you start to question the beliefs in general, and then It kinda falls from there, and then you realize, well, I didn't have all the answers. What else am I wrong about? What other thoughts am I thinking that aren't serving me?

voice over [00:26:12]:
Talking about being incongruent so I mentioned the story in my book, years ago. So I was Going to computer school, this is probably 2,005, I think it was. And at this time, I I I was a wreck mentally. The bus I would take from computer school would come down Rosa Parks Avenue. It would cross over, I think, Martin Luther King, And then it would turn towards the highway. Did this day in and day out for better part of a year. Bus was coming down Rosa Parks, and then It, as you can see, it crossed over the street, and then it didn't turn toward the highway. It kept going.

voice over [00:26:50]:
So instantly, I'm like, okay. What the hell is happening? I had that The natural mechanism of since I've been in conspiracy theories for a while, I'm like, okay. Something's happening. Something's out of the ordinary. Bus turns on to Michigan Avenue. I look up, there's black helicopters. I see, like, black helicopter down the distance coming down over the helicopter. I'm like, holy shit.

voice over [00:27:08]:
What's happening? I get off the bus, and there's, like, rows and rows of, armed, paramilitary soldiers. I'm like, oh my god. And this is when I was knee deep in Alex Jones. I'm like, holy shit. Alex Jones is right. I need to get home because I'm like, okay. I need to warn everybody. It was me, me, me.

voice over [00:27:25]:
Like, little narcissistic tendencies. I need to warn everybody. I need to be the hero. I get up the bus. I'm heading down, Rosa Parks Avenue, and then off the distance about 2 blocks away, I see this guy. The best way to describe him Is he looks like a like a scrotum stretch over skeleton with 2 eyes bulging out. Just Eyes kinda sag

voice over [00:27:48]:
a little bit.

voice over [00:27:49]:
See it already. Yeah. And keep that mind keep that in your mind. I'm like, holy shit. Like, I'm like, I know this person. My heart's just cracking on my chest. Okay. How do I know him? Is he is he one of those people who have been gang stalking me? I'm like, okay.

voice over [00:28:01]:
I'm obviously very paranoid. As I'm getting ready to to run past them, okay, when I get up to him, I'm gonna I'm gonna bowl I'm gonna get home and warn all everybody on Myspace. We have, like, a network of truthers and patriots. As I'm getting ready to bolt past them, I look over, I'm like, oh, why the fuck is Steve Buscemi here? I heard quiet on the set of my holy shit. That's when I realized, like, I'm on a movie set.

Grant [00:28:29]:
That's funny.

voice over [00:28:30]:
I'm being paranoid. Oh, this is actually gonna illustrate something that you're familiar with. That story I just told, there's elements that didn't happen. Steve Buscemi wasn't there. He was in the movie. The movie was the island, but he wasn't there. But I told that story so many times that, I've had to embellish it because people, they know Steve Buscemi. Once once you hear me say Steve Buscemi, the oh, yeah.

voice over [00:28:50]:
Totally. It looks like totally looks like that, which I'm gonna try and get endorsement from him for this book. I I don't don't think he's gonna give me endorsement after he sees that description in the book. I I hope so. I doubt it. It was all I the helicopters there, and then I think there were a couple, like, paramilitary that looked like there was, like, blown up tanks. But, yeah, I was I'm like, this is martial law. It's happening.

voice over [00:29:13]:
And then when that fell apart, that's when I that's one of the pivotal moments where I'm like, yeah. Alex Jones might be full of bullshit. He might be bullshitting us. Yeah. I bet. I'm so lucky that happened to me. But honestly, it's a hilarious story. Like, usually, when I tell people, people are like, oh, man.

voice over [00:29:30]:
And the funny thing is, If you're not familiar with it, Steve Buscemi was a firefighter back in, I think, like, 84 in the eighties. And when 911 happened, he went and he started volunteering. If I if I heard that at the time, I'd been like, uh-oh. Hollywood elite. You know where I'm going. Hollywood elite, he's part of it.

Grant [00:29:49]:
Mhmm.

voice over [00:29:50]:
Part of the conspiracy.

voice over [00:29:52]:
Subscribe to the podcast by going to www.escapingtherabbithole.com. Add your first name and best email to the form and smash the button that says get the podcast. You'll get instant access when the newest episodes are released. Plus, you'll get the first 3 chapters of Antonio's newest book sent directly to your email.

voice over [00:30:13]:
If you were still a conspiracy theorist and you wanted to recruit somebody into conspiracy theories, how would you go about doing it? What would be, like, maybe the 1st step, 2nd step, etcetera?

Grant [00:30:22]:
I was never a big recruiter. I'm I'm probably to a fault not preachy about anything, I believe, which Sometimes hinders me because, oh, I I can probably help you with this issue, but I don't wanna be preachy at all. So I just wanna help you or offer the health, you have to ask me. Yeah. So I I wouldn't I wasn't big on recruiting, but I would simply just Spread information, like if I was worried about something, just talk about it on an online forum, get get my concerns out there Because it is all fear based. You're fearing for your life, for your safety, for your family. It's it's nothing malicious Within their map of reality. Even I was doing a seminar about hypnosis, and there are people outside, Yelling and screaming that we're going go to hell because it wasn't what Jesus wanted, and you can barely hear me.

voice over [00:31:15]:
Hide me up.

Grant [00:31:18]:
And people are getting upset, and I'm trying to explain. They they literally think they're helping us. They think we're going burn in hell. So any rational person that thinks you're going burned in hell and they can help you, well, that's great. Why wouldn't they try to help you? And so A lot of times, these people think they're doing good, but they're really not. And so it's just kind of

voice over [00:31:41]:
Where was that when you they were screaming that you're burning in hell?

Grant [00:31:44]:
It was an event in Fountain Valley. I go all around and do little seminars and talks, and that one was in Fountain Valley.

voice over [00:31:51]:
Where's is that California?

Grant [00:31:53]:
Yeah. It's Orange County, California.

voice over [00:31:55]:
Okay. I'm super it's wild. Yeah. So we know that, questions are pivotal. What questions were you, what questions did you constantly ask yourself when you were a conspiracy theorists, I guess that maybe kept you stuck or, because it kept you stuck in the rabbit hole.

Grant [00:32:17]:
Well, I mean, once you have a belief, it's just nature to try to strengthen that belief to reinforce it, to build a solid foundation on your narrative and on the story that you're telling yourself. So once I've told myself that the government is not your friend and that the government is here to kill you, then you just look up ways. Oh, I hope today is not the day. Let's see what the government's doing today.

voice over [00:32:41]:
How can I keep myself safe from the government? Yeah.

Grant [00:32:44]:
When in reality, how does any of this keep me safe at all? How does Yeah. Go. Hear me?

voice over [00:32:50]:
Sign me up.

Grant [00:32:53]:
And people are getting upset, and I'm trying to explain. They they literally think they're helping us. They think we're going burn in hell. So any rational person that thinks you're going burned in hell and they can help you, well, that's great. Why wouldn't they try to help you? And so a lot of times, these people think they're doing good, but they're really not. And so it's just kind of

voice over [00:33:16]:
Where was that when you they were screaming that you're burning in hell?

Grant [00:33:19]:
It was an event in Fountain Valley. I go all around and do little seminars and talks, and that one was in Fountain Valley.

voice over [00:33:26]:
Where's the is that California?

Grant [00:33:27]:
Yeah. It's Orange County, California.

voice over [00:33:30]:
Okay. I'm so it's wild. So we know that, questions are pivotal. What questions were you, what questions did you constantly ask yourself when you were a conspiracy theorist? I guess that maybe kept you stuck or, because it kept you stuck in the rabbit hole.

Grant [00:33:52]:
Well, I mean, once you have a belief, it's just nature to try to strengthen that belief to reinforce it, to Build a solid foundation on your narrative and on the story that you're telling yourself. So once I've told myself that the government is not your And then that the government is here to kill you, then you just look up ways, oh, I hope today is not the day. Let's see what the government's doing today.

voice over [00:34:16]:
How can I keep myself safe from the government?

Grant [00:34:18]:
Yeah. When in reality, how does any of this keep me safe at all? How does Yeah. But No. I mean

voice over [00:34:27]:
hold on. Go ahead.

Grant [00:34:29]:
I mean, how I'm not sure how me going through Emails and trying to see if there is a pedophilia ring in in politics does anything to keep me safe or, If it was true, how I could do anything about it?

voice over [00:34:46]:
But it's so funny. They would make you, like, more at risk because if you expose it, you're gonna be killed. Mhmm. But we're, you know, the whole, Epstein didn't kill himself. So what's interesting in in that belief, There was a girl. I think her name was Virginia Guaffrey. She's one of the ones that was, it's so much mental gymnastics.

Grant [00:35:09]:
Right. Yeah. So, I mean, I guess some people grab on to one thing and then they say, oh, that stuff that I don't believe, that's not true. That's them trying to spread misinformation so you don't believe the truth. But, like, why do you even accept this as true when I mean, the only thing you've solved is that this official story might not be the truth. That doesn't mean that everything else is true.

voice over [00:35:34]:
What is your biggest struggle now that you're You're out of conspiracy theories.

Grant [00:35:41]:
I guess my biggest struggle is oftentimes well, I I was really into those, like, Spiritual kind of conspiracy theories, and I was really into a lot of the woo woo stuff. So my biggest struggle is Kind of getting back into that as a as a way of showing people how it's their mind oftentimes, how they attribute these things to Other things, but it's actually their mind. And so I've been still into the woo woo culture To try to teach hypnosis, to try to show them all these things that you enjoy, you can actually give yourself that power back because you're just prescribing it to someone else, but you're driving it to someone else, but you're the one doing it.

voice over [00:36:24]:
You can short circuit you can short circuit without having to do the law. But I think some people like the ritual of stuff. Exactly. Short circuit, get much faster results.

Grant [00:36:34]:
That's my that's my biggest struggle is sometimes I'll go to these things and people have absolutely no interest because the when you give it your power to someone else, to something else, You're no longer responsible for it, and people don't often like that responsibility. People often like to live at effects that the world is happening to them. But when you give all of your power back, you're living at cause, and a lot of times people don't like to accept that. So sometimes, I'll try to go to these Woo woo places and show them hypnosis, and they have absolutely no interest because they'd rather their higher being or their spirit guide do it for them. Yeah. They want way, if it doesn't work, the lazy way, the quick way. Right.

voice over [00:37:17]:
Right. The lazy way is hypnosis. That's the quick way. Mhmm.

Grant [00:37:21]:
But, I mean, if it doesn't work, then it's on them, and people don't like that.

voice over [00:37:25]:
That, they go you're right. It goes back to external locus of control. They want the outside force to do it for them versus being, in, in their own power. Now I wanna kinda, switch gears up a bit because, yeah, in this podcast, I like to interview either former conspiracy theorist, family members of conspiracy theorist, or, therapist, you have 2 elements of that. What, being a do you identify as a hypnotist or hypnotherapist?

Grant [00:38:00]:
I identify more as a hypnotherapist just because no mad no matter what I'm doing, it's a form of therapy. I'm still helping people. Even with my stage shows, I'll finish it off with helping people.

voice over [00:38:12]:
Nice. Now what are some What are some of your favorite mental health resources? It'd be it a book, podcast, app, etcetera, that you can share with the audience.

Grant [00:38:22]:
Oh, that's a great question. I mean, I like Andrew Huberman stuff. That's always good fun stuff. Other than that, introspection is going to be your best Bet no one knows you quite as much as you.

voice over [00:38:33]:
What? What is that? I,

Grant [00:38:36]:
but, yeah, I'd say, outside of introspection, outside of that, one One big thing that really changed my viewpoint on life and completely reshaped my my whole map was, before finding hypnosis, which is the best, I found Watts lectures and books, and so that that changed my life more

voice over [00:38:54]:
than that.

Grant [00:38:56]:
Alan Watts.

voice over [00:38:57]:
Oh, okay. I've really never listened to Watts.

Grant [00:39:01]:
Yeah. I'd say, the 1st book I read was Out of Your Mind, and that definitely changed my life. It changed my entire relationship with my with life and my relationship with it. And so outside of that and hypnosis, I'd say those are the best things that have really helped me in life.

voice over [00:39:17]:
I I have a question I'd like to ask every guest. What does escaping the rabbit hole mean to you?

Grant [00:39:23]:
It means freedom because When you're deep in that rabbit hole, you're living your life off of other people's paranoias and fears. And when you escape the rabbit hole, you see the world through how you want to see the world, not how other people tell you to see the world. It means freedom, and freedom is essentially control. It's self control. It's not controlling others. It's not controlling a narrative. It's controlling how you view the world and how you feel, and that's that's the best thing to have control over yourself, over your mind.

voice over [00:39:56]:
Yeah. Let let me ask you this. I've heard, I was in a training first, the thing called self-concept model by Steve Andreas from the Andreas LLP Cam. And I think it may be him or one of his students that said it, that freedom is kind of a weird word, a weird concept. How, let me ask you. Is it freedom to be, do, or have something?

Grant [00:40:19]:
How do I view view freedom? Yep. If you could if

voice over [00:40:23]:
you could frame it in the words of freedom to be, do, or have something, what would what would it be?

Grant [00:40:29]:
Oh, man. I'm so lost on this question. Your your own, way to do whatever you want to do that doesn't impose on anyone else's reality is basically how I view freedom to think your own organic thoughts that aren't placed there as, like, a psychic infection in terms of Carl Jung, that aren't placed there on a by other people, That you can kinda come to your own conclusion that aren't fear based driven and to be, well, anything because you pretty much can be most things within reason. And so as long as you're not limiting yourself, like, you're pretty free to do whatever you want So long as you're not imposing on others.

voice over [00:41:13]:
Don't hurt people. It's a the golden rule, don't be a dick.

Grant [00:41:17]:
I mean, that that's basically it. Respect that other the People have their own map of reality. Don't impose

voice over [00:41:23]:
on it. Yeah. It it's so hard to not do that. So hard to not do that, especially when you see somebody that you think is obviously wrong. I mean, it's funny when people tell, oh, the map is not the territory, but sometimes people are just Objective are are just wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely wrong.

voice over [00:41:41]:
Like, you could tell him, like, oh, this guy's blue, but people that wanna be oppositional, but, no. It's baby blue or whatever. Mhmm. Mhmm. Like, nope. But, I mean, if the color of yeah. We're going down another rabbit hole. We don't need to

Grant [00:41:55]:
You're gonna escape that one too.

voice over [00:41:56]:
He'd be here for 2 hours.

voice over [00:41:59]:
Thanks for listening to escaping the rabbit hole. To get instant access to the newest episodes of the podcast and the first 3 chapters of Antonio's newest book, go to www.escaping the rabbit hole.com and enter your first name and best email and smash That says get the podcast.