Episode Summary

In this episode, I talk to my guest about the 9/11 Truth Movement, the Sandy Hook conspiracy fear mongers, human trafficking, and more.

Quotes We Loved

  • Mental health improving after leaving conspiracy theories: "The mental health improved so much And it didn't really start improving until that moment when I was leaving the conspiracy theories behind."
    — Stephanie Kemmerer [00:10:18 → 00:10:32]
  • Conspiracy theorists playing victim: "That is one of the things that conspiracy theorists lack...they feel so out of control. Nothing is in their control. They wanna control things."
    — Stephanie Kemmerer [00:13:35 → 00:13:50]
  • The dopamine rush from conspiracy theories: "Those conspiracy theories were kind of like a hit of ecstasy where they ran that dopamine into overdrive And it would leave you with this I don't know if anyone's ever had an ecstasy hangover. They are not fun. They are not fun."
    — Stephanie Kemmerer [00:19:50 → 00:20:07]
  • How to respond to conspiracy theorists on Social Media: "Push back firmly but politely. But if you have nothing to offer to the conversation and it doesn't affect you, Keep scrolling."
    — Stephanie Kemmerer [00:25:54 → 00:26:40]
  • On debunked 9/11 conspiracy theories: "I didn't start hearing some of the actual stories about 911 until 2 years ago."
    — Stephanie Kemmerer [00:31:29 → 00:31:36]
  • One being lied to by conspiracy theorists: "They all lied to me. Those assholes, they lied to me."
    — Stephanie Kemmerer [00:35:37 → 00:35:41]
  • Conspiracy Theories and Shame: "There was shame. Especially with Sandy Hook, when my friend looked me in the eye and said that they worked with a parent who lost their child there...20 years of friendship was hanging in the balance based on how I would react to that."
    — Stephanie Kemmerer [00:35:49 → 00:36:32]
  • Overcoming Conspiracy Theories: "I can't promise that you're gonna have a perfect life, but you're gonna have a better one."
    — Stephanie Kemmerer [00:53:29 → 00:53:36]
  • How to protect child being trafficked: "And if you wanna try and if you wanna try and play detective, there's a thing called NamUs."
    — Stephanie Kemmerer [00:55:20 → 00:55:48]

Guest Bio & Links

Stephanie Kemmerer's links:



Read podcast transcript

Antonio [00:00:00]:

Aloha. It's Antonio with escaping the rabbit hole .com. Today, I have a very special guest. Like, every podcast is always a very special guest, but this one is extra special. And is a former truther. It's funny. I talked to her earlier. She called herself a truther.

Antonio [00:00:44]:

That's the nomenclature I used to use to describe myself as I thought we were uncovering the truth. Stephanie, thank you for coming on the show.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:00:52]:

Thank you for having me. I'm always happy to, Talk about the importance of recovery.

Antonio [00:00:59]:

You're right. It is a recovery. And For me, it was a recovery where it, it did not happen overnight. The last Remnants of, conspiracy theories for me was kind of letting go. That might have little elements of thinking 911 was an inside job, but it's very few elements. A few months ago, I was on the conspiracy theory, Reddit, well, before they banned me, like, 2 weeks ago. Free speech. Conspiracy theory Reddit.

Antonio [00:01:31]:

Yay. Free speech until until you debunk their conspiracy theories. In the, there's a thread they were talking about. Somebody's trying to show some evidence. It was a it was a, video of George Bush talking where the video was, edited, so I started getting, like, panic attacks. So I'm like, you know what? Let me before I go down this rabbit hole, let me go Google this. Let me do my own research. It was a it was a heavily edited video.

Antonio [00:01:58]:

At that point, I'm like, yeah. This is bullshit.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:02:02]:

Yep. They always do that.

Antonio [00:02:04]:

Yeah. Let me ask you. What what was your first foray into conspiracy What's the thing that what's the thing that got its tentacle on you?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:02:12]:

It was it was really all my life. I mean, I I those those time life, mysteries of the unknown, and, like, the Reader's Digest compilations. Like, I grew up like, most kids are reading, you know, Seaspot Run and all that shit, and I'm reading, you know, mysteries of the unknown, and I'm reading books about archaeology in ancient Egypt, and and so the it was always there. There's a there's a a predilection. There's thing. But I I was in and out of it, like, all my life and, you know, dabbled in David Icke and stuff like that, but I was able to Enjoy it without totally believing it, but then in, like, 2013 or 2014, I saw that stupid Zeitgeist movie, And I remember at the time I felt this whoosh inside me, and I was like, this feels good. I want more of this. Like, that was the dopamine.

Antonio [00:03:13]:


Stephanie Kemmerer [00:03:14]:

And, then I decided even though I had David Icke's 9/11 book years before and, like I said, I was in and out of it, That's when I went, like, hardcore. And when I started running out of 911 stuff, I started looking for other stuff. And I remember one time I was like

Antonio [00:03:31]:

You're gonna tap that dopamine.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:03:33]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And at one point, I was like, no. Nazis in Antarctica. No. I'll pass on this.

Antonio [00:03:43]:

That, that reminds me I think Mick West talks about, somebody has told me about this. He talks about the line of demarcation. There's a line between what people believe and don't believe. When I used to do we used to run a conspiracy theory movie, Ruined you every Sunday in, bar work at Detroit. And when people people would ask me that, oh, what do you think about the lizard people? I'm like, oh, I'm not that crazy. I'm not that crazy. I use it as my barometer. I'm like, I'm just this crazy.

Antonio [00:04:12]:

I believe in Satan's pedophiles. They're trafficking kids. It's all crazy.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:04:17]:

It's crazy. It it it is, but but, yeah, Mick West is right, though. There's always A line in the sand, like, back when I was a truther, some someone on Facebook was like they sent me a post about flat earth, and I replied with Sorry, bro. Not my thing. Like, you know, like moon landing shit and flat Earth. Forget it.

Antonio [00:04:39]:

What? You do not fall into the new age?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:04:43]:

No way. I dabbled with the occult and the new age and stuff like that too, but it it just I don't know. I it it was such a weird mix of different things, and I I I'm still trying to figure out, like, why Was I, like, watching Credo Matois and David Ike videos back in, like, 2003, 2004, and But yet, like, I was able to kind of leave that behind and still live, like, a normal life. Yeah. And and the only thing that I can think is it stopped being fun.

Antonio [00:05:19]:

It was painful. Like, oh, this is not good. Did you ever who's that that, black guy? I think it's from Africa that David Ike was talking about the one that credo. Yeah. That's credo. He's the one that could summon the UFOs. Right?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:05:34]:

Well, he he was he's I think he's Deceased now, but he was, like, an AIDS denialist, and he was, like, big on the, the serious conspiracy where, like, Why is it that this 1 tribe in Africa could see the star constellation that no one else could see or something? And he he, you know, he was like this cool Shaman guy, but because of his AIDS denialism, thousands of people died.

Antonio [00:06:00]:

I don't know. I don't think I ever phoned AIDS denialism. There's a lot of stuff I didn't know. But it it's funny in retrospect. I'm wondering if I actually believe this stuff or it it did it gave us community. I don't know about you, but, hey, I found other people that that validated my ideas. I love that. It, can you does that resonate with you at all?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:06:23]:

I I didn't when I was, like, hardcore into conspiracy theories, I didn't I really didn't have friends. And in a way, I think that was a saving grace for me because that made it easier for me to leave it behind. Oh. But it it was there I miss, like, the the nineties and the early 2000. I miss I call it, like, the golden age of coast to coast. Like, when Art Bell was still doing it, like, he pushed back. There there was fun. And one of my friends said something, like, really meaningful.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:07:04]:

He was like, there was kind of a nod and wink Back in that era of all the believers that we might bleed but kinda having fun. And that that the the the conspiracy movement changed so badly after especially after 911, But it was just there used to be fun. There it used to be so much fun, and that's why I actually that was the original Reason behind starting Doubt was it was me and Jatarth and Brent talking about the good old days. Like, Yeah. We had some fun. You know?

Antonio [00:07:51]:

I definitely did some elements of fun, but then I realized it was pushing some dangerous ideas. Speaking of, like, kinda, like, the wink wink nudge nudge, have you ever read I got it. I have not read this book. I'm pretty sure it's on my shelf, or I have it on Kindle. Robert Anton Wilson's, Luminatus trilogy.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:08:09]:

I have one of the books. I have, like, an old, like, 19 seventies copy of one of One of the books.

Antonio [00:08:15]:

It from what I gather, it sounds like he he kinda poked fun of conspiracy theories.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:08:21]:

It it was a LARP. It was a LARP That

Antonio [00:08:25]:

You say LARP or LARP, l a r p?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:08:27]:

LARP, l a r p. Yeah. Well, it was it was just like an ARG LARP that they we're doing, and it was a joke. It was a joke. It started out in the pages of Playboy Magazine and Too many people took it serious and, I mean, yeah, jokes are fun, but

Antonio [00:08:51]:

What was your perspective on mental health growing up versus now? Or, Okay. I'm gonna rephrase that one. Edit that. So what was your perspective on mental health growing up versus now?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:09:07]:

Well, I, you know, I wasn't as self aware. I had been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder when I was 14 And also by disorder. And

Antonio [00:09:19]:

I'm sorry. You said through the year. In what? What was your perspective on mental health growing up versus now?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:09:31]:

It seemed to to me with the the, you know, the misdiagnosis of borderline personality disorder, and I guess bipolar disorder was accurate. I was just always inundated with depression and and bad thoughts and just I wasn't as self aware, I guess, is the the quick and easy answer. And I was, like, on so much medication, like, about 10 years ago, and now, I can manage everything without medication. And, you know, I still talk to a therapist occasionally, but I I just the mental health improved so much And it didn't really start improving until that moment when I was leaving the conspiracy theories behind. But it it still took a few years after that to get to a a better place.

Antonio [00:10:36]:

So you had mental health issues before conspiracy theories.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:10:39]:

Yeah. And I'm pretty sure that the majority of people who are attracted to conspiracy theories, there is, And it's usually if you dig deep enough, you're gonna find traumatic events.

Antonio [00:10:51]:

R a u m a. Yep. Yep.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:10:54]:

You're gonna find that trauma, and you're you're usually gonna find a history of drugs. You're gonna find a history of toxic abuse Relationships.

Antonio [00:11:04]:


Stephanie Kemmerer [00:11:08]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Antonio [00:11:10]:

I'm gonna fill this out at you. Tell me if this kinda resonates with you. This explains, I think it helps explain conspiracy theorists, what kinda pulls them in, and it's in shameless plug in my book, Converting conspiracy theorist. I think it's in chapter 2 or 3. I talk about something called the FAME Model, f a m e. It the, f stands for feeling powerless and insignificant. Often, conspiracy theorists, they feel the power is insignificant. They wanna feel unique.

Antonio [00:11:38]:

They want that kind of power. They it's like a feeling of lack. They they they're not feeling something they want. At the same time, conspiracy theorists, they feel like they feel like like a victim, but they wanna be a hero at the same time. Does that resonate with you at all?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:11:55]:

Precisely. Exactly. 100%. That that's exactly that's exactly it.

Antonio [00:12:02]:

A stands for apophenia. You know, that's the idea of apophenia is the when you're connecting the dots. And Yep. I think what happens is I think it's almost like like you're connecting the dots, you're creating a story, and then there's like a big meta story that covers everything. Like QAnon is a big meta story. It's QAnon. M is misinformation. We know it's freaking everywhere.

Antonio [00:12:26]:

Then e, I think one of the biggest ones is external locus of control. Are you familiar with the locus of control?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:12:35]:

Very much so. In fact, that was one of my, epiphanies coming out of the rabbit hole When I I watched the 7 part documentary debunking 911 on YouTube, and the last part, they talked about, like, What is the mind of a conspiracy theorist? Like, may I use the example of your alarm goes off, you hit snooze, so you're running late for work, And on your commute, you're yelling about the slow driver in front of you, but You should be taking the responsibility on yourself. Yeah. That slow driver's a jerk, but it's your fault for hitting snooze. And they mentioned the external locus of control, and I tell people this. I remember it like it was yesterday. I looked up. I was watching it on my phone.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:13:25]:

I was all alone in the house, and I looked up, And I just said to no one, to an empty house, that's me. I'm not gonna be like this anymore. Like, I had that, like, revelation and That is it it's one of the things that conspiracy theorists lack is They feel so out of control. Nothing is in their control. They wanna control things, But, you know, there's that, like, fight club thing where it's like, stop trying to control everything and just let go, and I could never do that.

Antonio [00:14:07]:

When, when I was first introduced to conspiracy theorists, it was, maybe 6 months after 9/11, 6 months, something like that, closer to a year. I was at a bar in Detroit. So I was, like, kinda redneck bar or whatever, and I've I had been kinda going out with this throughout the time. It kinda went through, so I went to the bar to drink, which is you should totally do that when you're depressed. Go and drink. It helps. Bad idea. I, sitting next to some white guy.

Antonio [00:14:37]:

He had a, a I think it was, like, a jean jacket or denim jacket. He had a pocket constitution. Here's a important caveat. If you see anybody with a pocket constitution, turn around, run the other way. Nothing good is gonna come up of it. He asked me if I knew who Alex I think we're talking about 911. He asked me, like, do you know who Alex Jones is? When I told him no, he just basically told me everything about New World Order and these shadow governments are controlling the world. And that right there, it it clicked my confirmation bias.

Antonio [00:15:06]:

I'm like, oh, I'm not I'm not depressed because of anything I'm doing or or not doing. It's the outside world. That's It helped me to realize that while I was miserable, it was outside world. At the same time, I'm like, okay. The outside world is making me miserable. I need to this one, when I was listening to Alex Jones, I'm like, I need to fight back. I need to inform people. It's it's a freaking pyramid scheme.

Antonio [00:15:30]:

You pull other people into it, and it's also the sunk cost fallacy. You don't wanna feel like you're a dupe, so you bring other people into it. And then, I don't know if you felt like this. I felt guilt a little bit of guilt for pulling my brothers into it, and I I think I they didn't get full into it, but I thought like, holy shit. I pulled my loved ones into this crazy conspiracy cuckoo land.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:15:54]:

Yeah. Yeah. And and I've I've wondered that myself. Like, I I didn't post Too much about that kind of stuff, really, on Facebook or anything, but I I wonder how many people did I pill Or how many people did I encourage or inspire in some dark, horrible way? And I it just didn't it doesn't sit right with me. Like, I I need to know that unknowable. Like, did I pill anyone? And if I did, How can I unfill them?

Antonio [00:16:28]:

There's an orange book, by Peter Bigasse. You know what I'm talking about. Right?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:16:34]:


Antonio [00:16:35]:

Oh my god. Have you ever heard of, How to Have Impossible Conversations?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:16:40]:

No. No. Holy shit.

Antonio [00:16:43]:

You gotta get this book, How to Have Impossible Conversations. He definitely leans right, but he's respectful in his conversations. His he have you ever heard of street epistemology?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:16:57]:

Yeah. I've I've I've heard of that. I'm not I'm not I couldn't define it, but I've Part of that. Familiar.

Antonio [00:17:03]:

He's the one that coined the term. One of my one of the questions I love from, chapter 4 or 5, whatever, is you can ask somebody, how confident are you in the belief that 9 that 911 was an inside and how confident you on a scale of 1 to 10 that 911 was an inside job? You you get the baseline. If let's say if they're like, oh, like like a 7. Then you ask someone, Why didn't you choose a lower number? And then they have to, like, introduce doubt. In the book, they say if if they choose a really high number, it's a good chance it's a moralistic belief, meaning they're they have absolutely no Evidence for it, it's just they just believe moralistic. And then I think a follow-up question you can ask them. If if it sounds like it might be a moralistic belief, you can ask them, Would somebody would somebody believing x make them a good or a bad person? If it's a moralistic belief, good luck changing with evidence. You have to Use other in the book, they they have some other texts.

Antonio [00:17:59]:

But, yeah, anybody listening to this, go get a copy of How to Have Impossible Conversations. It's phenomenal, questions to be able to pull people out. Other thing he mentions, he talks about the unread library effect, which is You know, you're familiar with Duncan Kruger. Right?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:18:16]:

Yeah. Yeah. The, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Antonio [00:18:23]:

He, in the book, they talk about the unread library effect, meaning, like it's a good example. All these books up here. The fact they have all these books up there, it it tricks people to think that they know more about a subject, or because they know somebody, they know more about a subject. Unread Library Effect, I think, basically states that when we we have access to knowledge, we think we know more about that subject. So if we we're grabbing all these documentaries, etcetera, etcetera. The book talks about a couple ways to help people overcome that. But, yeah, definitely check that out. What emotional payoff did you get from researching conspiracy theories.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:19:03]:

It was the the brain heroin, the dopamine, and I, you know, was kind of like researching some something about, like, you know, the I was researching about the borderline personality disorder and all that, and I even went to a special therapist for it, and this therapist, another therapist, and then a 3rd therapist, and a psychiatrist were like, no. You don't have it. You're too self aware. And, you know, one of the things that I I kind of fell upon that I thought might be a diagnosis was lack of dopamine that, you know, I I I I never seem to be able to have that dopamine, and that may have been True. You know, I might have actually I might have a dopamine deficiency and that is a real thing. However, Those conspiracy theories were kind of like a hit of ecstasy where they ran that dopamine into overdrive And it would leave you with this I don't know if anyone's ever had an ecstasy hangover. They are not fun. They are not fun.

Antonio [00:20:08]:

The, what do they call it? Manic Mondays? What, suicide

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:20:11]:

Suicide Tuesdays. Yeah. I never got that that deep depression, but I just felt Terrible. And I'm like, why do people do this?

Antonio [00:20:19]:

Yeah. And

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:20:21]:

and And then you

Antonio [00:20:21]:

said, their podcast is amazing. And then why do they do this?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:20:24]:

Yeah. And I and I felt powerless and useless and hopeless in in life, and I was never gonna do anything, and I always wanted to be better and, you know, I I grew up kind of with this, like, entitlement where my mom was like, you're gonna be a famous author someday and, Like, you know, hyping me up, and I I just have this entitlement, and I don't think something. Yeah. And and I kept thinking, oh, I'm gonna be famous or I'm gonna be this or I'm gonna be that, and I I just was never happy. Nothing was Ever enough. The the emotional payoff for me was just feeling special and important and smart.

Antonio [00:21:06]:

That makes sense. I use this process called core transformation. It's phenomenal for change work, and it's, Similar to something called IFS, Internal Family Systems, if anybody here wants to do any kind of self work, you can get the book, Core Transformation. It might be a little bit easier to use an IFS, but it's this idea where you kinda close your eyes, you scan your body. You think about maybe some behavior or thought that you're struggling with and you wanna change. Close your eyes. You imagine you're in that context. You're you're gonna do it, and then you just kinda get a sensation or get Note do a body scan.

Antonio [00:21:41]:

Notice and you act like that, like, that is a a part of you, like, an inner like, inner personality. Like, it's the inner part of you. And then you just you you think that part from being there, but, you know, thank you for being here. Welcome it. Instead of normally, we try to try to, like, get rid of, if you have, like, a bad emotion, try getting rid of it, but this what you do is you kinda befriend it, act like his inner child, and ask it, like, what do you want? What are you doing for me? There's more of the process, but you can there's a couple different we can talk offline if you wanna do a session and give you an example of it. There's ways to Take those parts of us and help them to get what they want. For example, core transformation, you ask, the part, like, what it wants. Let's say it says, I I want I want you to feel special, then you have that part imagine.

Antonio [00:22:28]:

It's stepping into what it would our what it would be like to have that already. You ask it okay. When you let's say it says it wants to feel special, and then you ask it, and you keep chunking higher and higher until it gets to a place of, like, oneness, being this piece. For me, they feel very psychedelic. There's a lot more of the process. What happens is Those are feelings that generate from the inside versus a feeling of wanting to feel smart. That's like you get it's like the external validation. The process helps you to generate the feelings from the inside of feeling of, like, oneness, beingness, peace.

Antonio [00:23:02]:

And when you come from that angle, It's so much easier to let go of, bad habits and to to get the emotional payoff that conspiracy theories were doing originally, if that makes sense.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:23:16]:

Yeah. No. No. I I I get that and, you know, I I've told people that, You know, you might flip a light switch. Like like with me, when my friend said that they worked with a Sandy Hook parent, A light switch flipped in my head, and I was like, this has to end. I can't I can't believe any of this anymore. This has to end, And then the real work started after they left from visit, and I looked up that YouTube series. But then That, you know, and I was like, okay.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:23:48]:

That's it. I'm done. And I couldn't expose myself to any information about 911 whether I I that was dead. You know? Like, that was I was that old me was dead, and I was ready to let it Lie until COVID hit, and then I saw hundreds of people, some of them I knew in real life, on Facebook losing their minds, and I was faced with this idea of everyone sounds like I used to, and they need to know how bad that is, how wrong and terrible that is, and what Half their headed down, no one would listen to me. And, you know, so I was willing to let that part of me just be dead. But then I was like, This is something I can talk about, but no one wanted to listen.

Antonio [00:24:46]:

When I think it was February or I think it was March that began in the pandemic. I had started using that core transformation process again I just told you about, and I got an email from and I hadn't used Facebook for 2 months. It was all like, okay. I think it it was already I was already dealing with, like, a lot of toxic stuff, so I stopped using it for 2 months. I used core transformation to cut out Facebook for 2 months, And I got an email from my friend that whose family, invented that process. They sent out an email saying, hey. We're gonna have some practice groups. If you wanna find a practice Partner, here's our link to our Facebook group.

Antonio [00:25:25]:

Come by, and a part of me is like, oh, god. I don't know if I should do this. I'm like, you know what? Let me just I I tried real lightly. I'm like, let me just Click link as soon as I click that link to open Facebook, holy shit. I was smacked into I started using Facebook during Like, when the pandemic's ramping up, that's when, like, q and I it was wild. Like, anxiety and panic attacks instantly. Got them all stuttering here. Yeah.

Antonio [00:25:49]:

That was The worst time to go back on to Facebook. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:25:54]:

I used to I used to get that with every day when I log in to book. I'd have someone that I knew in real life either posting conspiracy theories Or I'd have someone who I've I've always had this rule, like, if if you see a post And you have issue with it, push back, but push back firmly but politely. But if you have nothing to offer to the conversation and it doesn't affect you, Keep scrolling. And I would sign on to, like, people being like, oh, well, blah blah blah blah blah blah. You don't understand how the Democrats are blah blah blah. I'd be like, dude, Keep scrolling. Shut up. And key and so I would I would have these massive panic attacks just logging on to Facebook.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:26:40]:

And sometimes, Even today, like, the other day, like, I got an email of someone that was, like I I think I posted it on Facebook. Like, what is even this shit? You know, like, someone was trying to yell at me because I don't believe in conspiracy theories anymore, and sometimes I get a little shaky when I when I see that, but now I I'm I'm kind of at the point where I'm building up the tolerance, and I I understand that. Like, sometimes I even now that I have a Facebook account again, I'm like, I won't log on. I'm like, oh god. There's oh god. What am I getting into? And but I just I'll just ignore it. I'll just move on, and I don't know. But it there is that anxiety.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:27:27]:

There really and it doesn't help.

Antonio [00:27:30]:

What's one idea that you think the majority of people have completely wrong about conspiracy theorists?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:27:37]:

Well, I we all like to joke. I've made jokes. I'm sure you've made the same joke, but I think The biggest myth about conspiracy theorists is that they're uneducated or stupid, and that's not true. And I think, You know, when when you see about, like, some doctor, like, a legitimate doctor, either a PhD or an MD Wait. We're not talking to

Antonio [00:28:03]:

the chiropractors. Right? Okay.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:28:05]:

No. No. Well, they're neither an MD or a PhD. I think they're they have a different acronym.

Antonio [00:28:12]:

Let me put this out here. I it drives me nuts when people go, oh, my chiropractor's a doctor. It's like, hey. They might be a doctor or chiropractor. Maybe they do help with adjustments, but when they start selling supplements, that's that's an issue I have.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:28:28]:

Well, when I worked at Aetna, Every once in a while, you'd be logging into a doctor or a patient's account And a big red thing would pop up and would say, do not handle this call. This provider has been flagged for overutilization of services, And it was always either a chiropractor or a physical therapist where they were, like, telling the patient they had to keep coming back and keep coming back and keep coming back, And they really didn't need to. So, yeah, I like, even back then, I was like, yeah. Chiropractors and physical therapists tend to, really love to get in those extra unnecessary visits.

Antonio [00:29:12]:

Milk milk in the system. What were you saying right before that? I've grown my little thing about, Oh, yeah. You're right. Like

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:29:19]:

They're not they're not stupid.

Antonio [00:29:21]:

Do Not

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:29:22]:

all of them. I mean, you do see a lot that really come off as uneducated and ignorant, and that is a fact, but that does not you know, Alex Jones is not a dumb person. No. Mike Flynn is not a dumb person.

Antonio [00:29:40]:

They're smart. Do you think that it can make somebody dumb? Do you think it can it can attribute to, like, brain rot, which isn't a scientific term, but it's my term.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:29:51]:

Well, yeah. Because, I mean, you know, the Everyone talks about how smooth those brains become. It it damages your Ability to to think critically. It damages your ability for even just plain situational awareness of of just what's in the room and around you. It it damages how you Perceive the world and how you perceive yourself. I spent, like, 3 years in the rabbit hole, and during that time, I had my own cleaning business full time. I'm in Pennsylvania, and I managed to do it successfully when we moved to California. And I hated every second of it.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:30:33]:

And then I realized I didn't hate the cleaning. I hate it myself because I still do some cleaning now, and I love it. I love it because I don't Hate myself. It wasn't the job. It was me. And that that's what it does to you is Anger, rage, helplessness, hopelessness, powerlessness, all of that stuff is what you feel, and When you feel like that, you could walk into a room made of gold, and There's rainbows and birds and it's sunny and it's beautiful, and you're still you still hate it. There's still something wrong, And it it does it does damage your brain, and it also it insulates you from outside knowledge. I knew everything about 911.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:31:27]:

Well, guess what? I didn't start hearing some of the actual stories about 911 until, like, 2 years ago. And, like, now, literally, anyone could come up to me on the street and ask me, Like, you know, what time did flight 11 hit? Oh, 8:46 AM. It was the north the the north side of the north tower, And it hit just between the I think it was the 88th and 93rd floor. And, you know, I I can explain all these things to people, and I can be like, oh, the the borderline was the stairs. If you are on floor 91, You could live. If you were above that, 92 and above, you were dead. There was no way out, and I could tell people about New York City building code. I didn't know any of this back then because I knew everything.

Antonio [00:32:21]:

Wow. You you did way more research than I did, and please do do not tell me to do your own research. Don't tell me that. You did you did you did the research for all of us.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:32:30]:

Well, I I I've always been obsessed with 911, Except now I'm obsessed from it for about it. My obsession comes from a place of reality. Whereas before, It was I I still get the same dopamine

Antonio [00:32:47]:

You thought it

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:32:48]:

was so that I got I still get that same rush from studying 911, Except it it's it's the same rush, but it's based in reality. You still get that.

Antonio [00:33:02]:

The same validation of, what did you say? What was the validation? Oh, you said the, like, the the the see was it, like, seeking importance kinda thing?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:33:11]:

Well, no. It it's it's not that. It's more of, like, I want to know what happened that day. I wanna know every every single step. I wanna know every second, I wanna know I I just wanna know so much about that day, and I think because I was in the thick of it when it happened, I didn't get to process it because I was working on a newspaper that day, so I everything was go go go all hands on deck. I didn't get to process to really process that stuff. And I I think that's what kept pulling me back into it, but I landed in the conspiracies. And, honestly, the true the real facts of it are are just so Amazing.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:34:01]:

Like, like, they found 54,000 individual personal items in the rubble and at the, at the landfill. Like that, there's a story behind there's 54,000 stories. That's so fascinating.

Antonio [00:34:40]:

If you can remember, what's your your first thought after you fell out of conspiracy theories?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:34:47]:

Well, I I one of the first things was they lied to me because when when I watched that YouTube series, And I've I'd have to find out the guy who made this series because I really need to thank him. One of the thing they talk about World Trade Center 7 because that's the big one. And I realized watching this video, he's like, This is the side of the building they show you when it collapses. And then he goes, but they won't show you this side. There there was a when the conspiracy theorists show you the building collapsed and they'll only show you the undamaged side, and they're like, how could this building fall? They won't show you the backside of the building, which was completely devastated. Half of it was gone. And I had this feeling of they all lied to me. Those assholes, they lied to me.

Antonio [00:35:42]:

What, was there any element of shame wrapped up in that? Oh my god. How could I be duped by these assholes?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:35:49]:

Yeah. A a little bit a little bit of it was you know, there was shame. And especially with Sandy Hook, when my friend looked me in the eye and said that they worked with a parent who lost their child there, That that was that was, I had that split second where, like, 20 years of friendship was hanging in the balance based on how I would react to that. And I didn't even bother with Sandy Hook because as far as I was concerned, that was Absolutely debunked by my friend's story, and that's why I went to 911. But I still had questions about Sandy Hook, like the whole Robbie Parker saying read off the hard thing. And guess what? That was a lie too. All of the YouTube videos

Antonio [00:36:33]:

Were they edited?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:36:33]:

Yeah. What no. But when he gave the press conference, People claim that you could hear him say, read off the card. Guess what? It's like those those ghost hunting shows where they play and they tell you it sounds like the voice is saying this. When someone suggests and you should know this because of the hypnosis. When someone suggests that it sounds like someone Is saying something.

Antonio [00:36:59]:

You fill the blanks in.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:37:01]:

And, yeah, and and the YouTube headlines all the YouTube headlines were set would say, Sandy Hook father says read off the card. He never said it because I went back and I watched one of those videos with those headlines. He never said that. He never said that. That was suggested. And so it's just it's important to It was important for me to reevaluate.

Antonio [00:37:31]:

Yeah. It, I'm still doing reevaluation. I have a theory that the 1st conspiracy theory that somebody is introduced to is I've said this numerous times, it's like a foundation of a house. And every Time we get new information, a new conspiracy theory, it only like settles and then the house, it just it it settles down. I have a theory that if you were to, because I I think that so let's say, how do I say this? The conspiracy theorist, let's say they get into 911 being an inside job, and then they get into, the Jews and then, c tenet pedophiles and then Selmer Freedom, for example. Do you have a feeling that they're not gonna talk about the original conspiracy theory. They're gonna talk about the most current one. Is that your kinda feel? Your, am I right on that assumption?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:38:24]:

Sometimes I think, but, yeah, the you know, it's kinda like you you wanna hype up the new thing that's in your brain or whatever. But It's also but, like, for me, like, I I was always going back to 911. I was going back to 911 and just I don't know. I I I've tried to assess what it is about 911 that Obsesses me so. And I I just think it's that a fear of heights, the just I I don't know, but it There's there is something, I think, about each individual conspiracy theory that clicks with that person.

Antonio [00:39:05]:

No. So Well, my theory is any the conspiracy theory that were first introduced who's like the foundation of a house, and then every conspiracy theory that we get introduced kinda It's like it's like an extra layer of the house. I would like to see that if you could help somebody to to change their belief On the original conspiracy theory, if that would be like a crack through a foundation, it would start kinda rippling through. And I think one thing that Alex Jones does is, is something that you'd have to repeat is he'll kinda give you a little seeds of doubt and then hit and then he says, If they lied about x, what else have they lied about? If those conspiracy theorists lied to you about building 7, what else have they lied to you about? And then just let then you have to let that percolate in the person's mind. When you see the the days and the the the the kind of, glossy eyes where somebody's processing, You don't just say, oh, look. I told you. You let them process it and say, you know what? Just sit on that. Just let's talk later.

Antonio [00:40:09]:


Stephanie Kemmerer [00:40:10]:

them Yeah. Yeah. And my, my my 1 buddy, poker and politics, he and I have been doing a series on his Patreon called found money where We're watching and debunking loose change because we're both former truthers, and it's so fascinating to me. You you Because seeing it again after not being a conspiracy theorist, I'm blown away at How, like, Lenny Rufeinstall, the style of loose changes, and I'm seeing all their techniques.

Antonio [00:40:48]:

What was that name?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:40:50]:

Loose, it's called found money. That's the

Antonio [00:40:53]:

name of the You said Lenny what?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:40:55]:

Loose change.

Antonio [00:40:56]:

Oh, no. You well, you said it you then you said it was Such a style that you said Lenny, what, Lenny Gryphonstahl?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:41:03]:

Lenny Lenny Rufeinstahl. She was, Hitler's personal filmmaker. She made, Triumph of the Will, which anyone who's in a film class, you will have to watch that movie.

Antonio [00:41:14]:

Okay. I haven't actually watched Loose Change since then. That that was the one that, first it was like 9 it was like Alex Jones. And then I got introduced to Loose Change. I remember thinking, like, oh, you guys you guys are

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:41:27]:

so And it's

Antonio [00:41:28]:

I'm so ahead of you guys.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:41:29]:

So well done. It's so what? Like, the propaganda is like shit, but the music, like, Poker and I will be playing the clips, and we'll be like, this is a good jam. And the the voice, the way Dylan Avery narrates it, it's so crystal and crisp and and and It's a very well made propaganda piece, and Lenny Rufeldahl would be very proud of them.

Antonio [00:41:53]:

Are you friends with Dylan and Avria on Facebook?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:41:56]:

Oh, no. No. No. Because I have some choice words for that. You know

Antonio [00:42:08]:

Let's say you were still a conspiracy theorist and you wanted to recruit Somebody to the dark side. How what would how would you go about doing that? What do you think the 1st 1st, 2nd, maybe 3rd step would be?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:42:20]:

Well, fear, uncertainty, and doubt. The FUD model. That's what every great conspiracy theorist does is You infuse a person with fear, and then you give them uncertainty about the future, and then you give them doubt about how the real world works. And I I I came up with this thing called FUD for food, where If the person who's selling you on the FUD also is selling you something to counteract that, Then if you're selling me the problem and the solution, then that's there's no legitimacy to that.

Antonio [00:43:04]:


Stephanie Kemmerer [00:43:05]:

But it you have to sell people on fear. You have to sell them on uncertainty, and you have to sell them on doubt. And once you can infuse that in them, It's you can you know, it's not a it's not a long drive from George Bush did 911 too. Oh, where's the Prussian blue staining in the Auschwitz chambers? You know, it's I I was never a holocaust denier.

Antonio [00:43:32]:

I started to get into that stuff. There's a guy, David Coleman, I think it was.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:43:38]:

David Irving. Oh, no. Wait. There is a Colm David, The Historical Revision Society located in California?

Antonio [00:43:45]:

No. This is guy David Coleman, and, I actually I'm a look his name up. I actually mentioned in my book, David Coleman was it I don't know. It doesn't be a shameless plug for my book. I don't wanna waste time looking for I think it was like Chip or 6, but I mentioned how I, I didn't feel that I was it's like I didn't feel like a, I was being anti Semitic because a Jew told me it. It's what it was. It was a Jewish guy that was basically saying, oh, no. You can't trust it.

Antonio [00:44:16]:

The holocaust was a lie.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:44:20]:

I think it was Yeah. There was a holocaust survivor who became a holocaust denier. Oh, really? You think to yourself, how is this possible? But, really, if you think about it, it makes the most sense of all. Who most would wanna deny something that horrible than someone who survived it? If he denies that it happened, he doesn't have to deal with what he went through.

Antonio [00:44:43]:

You ever seen the movie Memento?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:44:46]:


Antonio [00:44:46]:

That kinda reminds me as you just, like, blocking those memories out.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:44:51]:

Yeah. Yeah. And and and it's just, But I I use that that was, you know, flat Earth, moon landing, and holocaust. Those were my lines in the sand. Those were my lines.

Antonio [00:45:05]:

I can't believe you. The this is too crazy.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:45:09]:

Yeah. And I grew up, like, I I when the History Channel actually played, like, history documentaries, I couldn't walk through the living room without hearing Hitler on the TV because my dad is obsessed with World War 2. So I and it was and one time when I was a little kid, because of seeing all these documentaries, I Paint it a swastika, and I showed my dad because it was a perfect swastika. And he's like, no. This is bad. And he explained to me, you know, I didn't know. And So my dad always had it in my head, like, Nazis bad. Nazis bad.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:45:47]:

Holocaust bad. Holocaust real. And So that was you know, even when I was reading David Icke and in Children of the Matrix, he gets a little denial y. I, I was like, well, I'm just gonna ignore this chapter and believe the rest.

Antonio [00:46:04]:

1st experience I have seeing this swastika that I remember, I was real little. I was watching, Star Trek, it's a episode when they went back, somehow, I think they teleported back into, Nazi Germany, and I saw Swatchfords. I didn't understand. So I they got like a like a little it was like a mason jar lid or like a lid of, like, in a Tupperware container, whatever. So I I think I was either using, like, a marker or, or tape. No. I think it was using a marker to draw it out, and that's why my mom did the same thing, like like, no, like, Nazi's bad, and explained to me. I'm like, okay.

Antonio [00:46:41]:

So I think that right there, that might've that might've been the first belief I got installed with my parents, like, Nazi bad. No. So that that might have been the one thing that kept me from going full out into, anti Semitic, bullshit. And then, of course, I found the stupid, You know, the protocols of Zelle of and I actually had a conspiracy theorist that showed me those in the past, like, year and a half. They sent me a copy, and I think it had, like, an FBI stamp on it. I forget what their argument was. I think they were trying to say, like, The feds were behind it or something like, no, you ding dong. The feds are probably showing this as misinformation.

Antonio [00:47:22]:

Like, I don't

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:47:23]:

originally written in 18/92, and it was written by a Russian, and it was And it was plagiarized from an earlier piece. And honestly, look, I I don't if if there's a cabal That's secret and rules the world. Do you think they're gonna write it fucking down? No. They are not gonna write it down. Why would they do That.

Antonio [00:47:51]:

Yeah. And and if they have that much power, you think Joe Blow listens to Alex Jones is gonna stop him? No.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:48:01]:

No. Exactly. And, also, these are people who Have never experienced what it's like to have a Jewish friend, what it's like to sit down for a Passover Seder, which I I did.

Antonio [00:48:16]:

I'm gonna have to refrain. I'm gonna have to interject on that. I grew up in Michigan. I went to school in, just outside Detroit where I went to school in middle school, 99% Jewish. So however fell into that, I don't know. I think in the book, I described how I mean, I dealt with bullying growing up being on the spectrum and will self diagnose. So I think I might have unconsciously said, oh, look. The the Jews are bad.

Antonio [00:48:44]:

I don't that might have been the case. I wrote that in the book. I might have attributed, some malice to Jews because of that. And I mean, Honestly, writing a book is it's a good therapy session. You unpack a lot of stuff and you start writing a book.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:48:59]:

The main thing is that Even if you're not an anti Semite, if you stay in the conspiracy world long enough, You are and and even it's even in loose change. It it's heavy in the 911 movement. Larry Silverstein took out an insurance policy. Oh, Silverstein. What kind of name could that be? So it's it's it's In in, like, the loose changes and the zeitgeist, it's implied. It it it it's implied. And then you get to the people who are doing the the 6MWE bullshit. 6 m w stands for 6,000,000 wasn't enough.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:49:48]:

And that when I first looked that up, I was like, are you kidding me? Are you Kidding me. And but if you if you stay in the conspiracy sphere, you're gonna get opposed to it even if you don't realize it. It's always done in an underhanded, conniving manner.

Antonio [00:50:09]:

And let me read the small passage. This is about, this is from chapter, 5. It the chapter is real world consequences of conspiracy theories. Some conspiracy theories seem harmless. We're talking about all the stuff of aliens, Bigfoot, etcetera. The fact of the matter is conspiracy theories have a tendency to pull people one, hence the saying going deeper down the rabbit hole. Where it starts getting dangerous is the theories that claim shadow governments rule the world or even the QAnon theory that satanic Pedophiles in Hollywood are feasting on children's blood. Well, it's easy to mock that belief, it stood the test of time.

Antonio [00:50:45]:

In quotes I put, But QAnon isn't that old. What are you talking about? A voice pipes up. Sure, sure. QAnon is relatively new, but the belief that satanic People are feasting on children's blood is 1000 of years old. You know, 1000 of years ago, Jews were accused of killing Christian babies and drinking their blood. And then I mentioned how QAnon, I I think people that ran QAnon realized like, hey. We can't say the Jews. It's gonna make us look racist.

Antonio [00:51:10]:

So I said, They refrained it from the Jewish problem to the satanic Hollywood pedophile problem, which is smart on their part. You can't call a QAnon supporter for you can't call them racist. And It's funny when, that's kind of a nod back to what you said, how there's still, like, little elements of, antisemitism when they talk about Silverstein, etcetera. When when people are saying, like, oh, I'm not saying the Jews did. I'm saying Hollywood elite. I'm like, You're saying the Jews when you say Hollywood elite.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:51:42]:

And Mike Rothschild is is the reason that he wrote His most recent book, Jewish Space Lasers, which I have an advanced copy of, and it's great. He said that You see this element with you know, over time. And one of the things that people use To insulate themselves from accusations of anti semitism is it's not all Jews. It's just These Jews, and they're always referring to the Rothschilds.

Antonio [00:52:12]:

The Zionists. Yep. The Zionists.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:52:16]:

Yeah. And and you can you can get away with that when you're like, oh, well, I don't hit all black people, just these ones. And that's where that's where soft racism is is becoming hard racism. And even if you don't believe In the protocols of the elders of Zion, exposure to these ideas and beliefs over time, you you you don't believe it, But it's in there.

Antonio [00:52:45]:

I've got 1 last question for you. What does escaping the rabbit hole mean to you?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:52:52]:

It means, it means a better life. It may and I tell people this all the time. We're We're form our we have a nonprofit organization that's in the process of starting, and it's called the American Information Integrity Alliance. And part of that is D. O. T, which stands for discussing our unusual beliefs together. And I'm the head of D. O.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:53:12]:

T, and it's a support system performer conspiracy theorists. And for me, it's about community. It's about Helping people understand themselves better. And I tell people, I can't promise that You're gonna have a perfect life, but you're gonna have a better one. You're gonna see a better one because underneath That need to believe in conspiracy theories is someone who's gone through a divorce, someone who's been sexually abused, someone who's dealt with drug and alcohol issues. And it's not that those traumatic foundations are like the house foundation that conspiracy theories get built on. So those conspiracy theories are just a symptom of the problem, so you have to attack the under. What's really going on in your life, Lou, that, you know, you're talking about QAnon all of a sudden? Well, you know, I've been having problems with That's that's the thing.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:54:17]:

It's it's there's an underlying problem that those conspiracy theories are preventing you. There it's a prophylactic from being a better person.

Antonio [00:54:27]:

The conspiracy theories, they help people. We know it is. I think people also have boring lives. Can we go to work? We come back. Our life is boring. Things are more exciting on TV. Yeah. I would like to think that I'm I'm fighting some satanic Pedophiles are fighting some big shadow government.

Antonio [00:54:44]:

It makes it sound way more exciting than our boring ass lives.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:54:48]:

Yeah. It it does, and but the thing is is, like, All that effort that the digital soldiers put into oh, I went to go see Sound of Freedom. I'm helping. Now let me tell you about NCMEC. Okay? Let me let me tell you about how you can volunteer for search and rescue squads in your local neighborhood. Let me tell you about how to file an FBI tip. Let let me tell you about ways that you can actually Help children from your computer, and if you wanna try and if you wanna try and play detective, there's a thing called NamUs, And you can try from your computer, you go through their database, and you go through the list of missing persons, and then you go through the their list of unidentified human remains, and see if you can find a match. And donate to the DNA Doe Project because everybody deserves their name.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:55:48]:

So if you really wanna be a digital soldier and you wanna help save children, You can do it for free for NamUs. You can go online, search Telegram, look for shady shit, file an FBI report. There's so much that you can do to help people, and the most important thing you can do if you wanna help save the children, LGBTQ children accept them because they comprise the biggest portion of runaways. Most missing kids are runaways who are recovered within a a short period of time, but the reason for that runaway situation is usually because their parents won't accept them, And they also run the biggest risk for being actually trafficked.

Antonio [00:56:32]:


Stephanie Kemmerer [00:56:34]:

So there are ways that you can save the children. It doesn't involve going to see a shitty Jim Caviezel movie. It involves being active and helping.

Antonio [00:57:20]:

Thank you for jumping on the podcast. And for people that wanna learn more about the doubt model, how do you guys have a website for that?

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:57:29]:

We have the, American Information Integrity Alliance website. It's it's still, like, in its Early stages. I can I can give you the link?

Antonio [00:57:39]:

No. Tell you what, everybody that's listening or if you're on the website for listening. If you go to escaping the rabbit hole .comforward/steph, her for the Initial's for first name, escape the rabbit hole .comforward/steph, and it will I'll have it redirect to, to her website or she also has a Google document with a bunch of links.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:58:08]:

And, I'm sending you those Links right now. And, yeah. So it it the the American Information integrity alliance fights against misinformation, and doubt is there to pick people up who have fallen victim to it. Thank you. And there's more of us than you know. For every one of us that speaks out, there's, like, 10 or 20 more who are silent.

Antonio [00:58:38]:

Oh, conspiracy theorist. Right? Yeah.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:58:40]:

Farmers. Yeah.

Antonio [00:58:41]:

Former. Now if anybody let's say if you're a former or if you're somebody I know a lot of former conspiracy theorists have a fear of getting drawn back into it. If you need help and you want, we're not judging. I, Don't worry. I'll judge other people in my life. I'll judge other people. You can, reach out to us. If you wanna do, A free session with me, we can jump on Zoom.

Antonio [00:59:03]:

I can help you to, overcome some of the anxieties that kinda caught you there in the 1st place.

Stephanie Kemmerer [00:59:10]:

Thank you. Anyone has questions about 911 or Sandy Hook, my email is doubtisthewayout@protonmail. Email me. I will answer those questions because I've become I don't like to use the word expert, but I have become very knowledgeable in both subjects, and I can answer any question that you may have about those 2 things.

Antonio [00:59:33]:

Thank you so much for getting on the podcast, and hopefully the The Illuminati laser beams don't take us out. Oh, wait. Oh, did I tell speaking of my did I tell you how I introduced I opened my talk at the hypnosis conference? I don't know if I did. Oh, no. I did. I think I gave you the tip. So how I opened this talk, I, I was really nervous, so I'm at the front of the room. I'm okay.

Antonio [00:59:57]:

Who here, by show of hands, knows a conspiracy theorist? Now by show of hands, who doesn't know a conspiracy theorist? Now by show of hands, who was sent by the Illuminati that take me out today? And then a laser pointer went like that and boom, up to my head.

Stephanie Kemmerer [01:00:11]:

Oh, yeah. I said it reminded me of the movie Wanted.

Antonio [01:00:15]:

Yeah. It oh, you mean Wanted? You mean the much better version of Taken? Yeah. That movie?

Stephanie Kemmerer [01:00:20]:

No. The one with James McAvoy and and

Antonio [01:00:23]:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie Kemmerer [01:00:23]:

Lee, the the elite assassins. Yeah. Yeah.

Antonio [01:00:26]:

I'm thinking taken. Thank you for coming

Stephanie Kemmerer [01:00:30]:

on. Thank you very much.

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Escaping The Rabbit Hole
Escaping The Rabbit Hole

Former conspiracy theorist, Antonio Perez, discusses how to deal with family and friends that have fallen down the rabbit hole.

About the Author

Antonio Perez, author of Converting Conspiracy Theorists, is a former conspiracy theorist.  He helps friends and family members of conspiracy theorists to improve their mental and emotional health, and to set clear healthy boundaries with their conspiracy theory addicted loved ones.

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